To me the “female principle” is, or at least historically has been, basically anarchic. It values order without constraint, rule by custom not by force. It has been the male who enforces order, who constructs power structures, who makes, enforces, and breaks laws. – Ursula K. Le Guin
Regular readers already well-know that I am what one might call a pragmatic anarchist; though in principle I adhere to the Wiccan Rede, “And it harm none, do what thou wilt”, I understand that a society needs to have some rules because individuals’ views of what constitutes “harm” vary wildly. IMHO the best principle for government is therefore, in the words of Thoreau, “That government is best which governs least.” I do not mention this merely for academic reasons but rather for practical ones: up until recently my readership was relatively small and admirably self-constrained, but in recent weeks my popularity has increased dramatically and with it the number of comments and the breadth of human experience represented by my commenters. The practical upshot of all this is that while this blog used to be a sort of quiet tea party in which a loud or raucous individual stood out like a turd on a tablecloth and was therefore easily chastened by a glance from the hostess, it has now grown into a large cocktail party in which it is easier for guests to forget themselves and more difficult for your hostess, however vigilant she may be, to keep watch in every room all the time. So as much as it pains my freedom-loving soul to do so, I’m afraid I shall have to establish a few rules in order to keep the house from being trashed and to maintain a civilized atmosphere. With the exception of the first two, these aren’t meant to be rigid “laws” but rather flexible rules; if you technically break the letter of one but do not violate its spirit you’ll be fine. 96% of my posters have never even come close to violating any of these guidelines, so don’t stress yourself; I’m actually very difficult to annoy so it’s nearly impossible to do so inadvertently. You’d almost have to break one of the rules on purpose to get me to invoke it.
1) Please read my column of January 1st and understand that this is my blog and nobody else’s; I won’t put up with anyone telling me how to run it or what it “should” be, nor will I endure thread hijacking, spamming, or flooding of my comment threads with innumerable inappropriate posts. Such posts will be deleted without warning.
2) Anyone who introduces himself for the first time with an insulting, dishonest or trollish post will not ever make it to the board unless I choose to talk about the communication within the context of a column as I did on September 27th and December 27th. If the first attempted post is hostile but pertinent I may allow it through, but alter the identifying information so subsequent posts must still be moderated. So if you got a comment or two in but notice that subsequent attempts fail to appear, you might consider asking yourself why that might be so.
3) Please be civil; I had enough acrimonious argumentation with my ex-husband to last several lifetimes and I will not put up with it here. If the involved parties restrain themselves quickly I won’t step in, but if it goes on without sign of stopping I reserve the right to delete as many of the offending posts as I like. If I choose to do this, the posts of BOTH naughty children will be deleted. Remember Brandy’s mantra: “I will behave on Maggie’s blog, I will behave on Maggie’s blog, I will behave on Maggie’s blog…”
4) Please be pertinent; though I don’t mind if a regular poster occasionally throws out something off-topic, or if threads wander organically (which is practically inevitable when more than half my readership is female), that’s a far cry from constantly making posts which have nothing to do with my topic in even the most tangential and cursory fashion (see rule #1 above). WordPress is free; if you have an agenda you wish to advance, please get your own blog rather than repeatedly attempting to proselytize on my virtual premises.
5) Please, no manifestos; though nearly everyone needs to make a long post from time to time to say what needs to be said, if your typical post can’t fit all on one screen you should probably consider doing your own blog and just posting links. I’m not talking to those who are just naturally long-winded; if I made a rule against that it would be pot calling kettle black. I’m talking about those who cut and paste huge blocks of text, usually on many different websites.
As Le Guin says, I “value order without constraint” and prefer to “rule by custom not by force.” If you’ve been here a while and I’ve never complained about one of your posts I probably never will, and if you’re contributing positively to discussions I’m willing to look the other way even if you do break my rules once in a while. But if you’re here to make trouble or even if you’re just naturally cantankerous, you might want to keep these guidelines in mind before spending 25 minutes typing a post which you suspect I might delete.
LOL. Perhaps this post should be filed in the top menu and “anarcho-pragmatist” should be filed within the many branches of anarchy much like “archeofeminist” is to feminism.
I plan to put a link to it in the right column next week (once it drops down lower than most people browse). It started life as a page but cluttered up the tabs, and the right column is too long already so I didn’t want to add much more there. 🙂
A killfile at last! 😀
Even if somebody else has their finger on the kill-switch.
Good luck, Maggie!
PS
I may be permanently scared by Usenet, but I do find some trolls funny some of the time. But that is never good enough reason to put up with them. 🙂
Rest assured, Vlad, I’ve always had one; I just finally decided to post the criteria for banishment to it. 😀
Ah, so…
And just for a moment there I thought that human lot has improved and most trolls disappeared with the demise of Usenet. 😉
Been mulling over the decriminalization/legalization debates regarding prostitution. Were there to be full blown legal recognition of prostitution, do you think the stigma would then shift to johns, rather than whores? Actually, right now both are stigmatized. But let’s say it was legalized; I would respect a woman if she could make a good living hooking. Johns, on the other hand, well…how could a john ever be respected?
I have a feeling this is critical to understanding human nature and the situation our society is in. After all, it isn’t just ‘losers’ who visit whores. It’s judges, cops, doctors, teachers…
Do you think the resistance to the legalization movement is because our society is not comfortable with so-called ‘respectable’ men paying for sex, and that’s it’s best to keep it on the down-low, and make the whores suffer the stigma alone?
I think the reasons for resistance to decriminalization vary with the resistor. Puritans resist it because they want all sex outside marriage to be illegal, neofeminists because they don’t want men to be free of sexual extortion, politicians resist any deregulation or decriminalization of anything, cops resist it because they don’t want to loose their license to rape and bully whores, and insecure women resist it because they think we’ll steal their husbands. 🙁
There ARE women who try to break up relationships. I’ve experienced the HELL of this. Sailor Barsoom said it’s OK for me to talk about this on here. To be honest, there’s women I wouldn’t trust in any area just based on how they treat me as part of a couple. With the ###*** that tried to break us up it started with NON-sex stuff like what I said above. I wasn’t a fraction as upset over the sex as the other ###*** like plotting behind my back, etc. But, this doesn’t extend to me wanting to keep prostitution illegal. Also, what is a puritan to you? I’m a Christian who thinks the only sex things that should be illegal are rape, incest and TRUE child molestation (by TRUE I mean NOT those cases where 1 is 16 and the other is 18). If there’s any others I can’t think of them now. Congressman Ron Paul is hated by many for wanting decriminalization of drugs and prostitution for years. I have the strong feeling he isn’t the only 1. I always think of him 1st, though, because he’s 1 of the few I support. Are these the basic reasons then you think people are against decriminalization?
If I talk too much about MVS stuff, please let me know. What I do in my spare time in regards to MVS is 1 of the most important/favorite parts of my life for years now. But, if I say too much about it please let me know. Also if I get too much into talking about the small groups of people, people that break stereotypes, etc. I’m hoping as a “wild woman” (even though I haven’t been “wild” by choice for almost 8 years) my voice has some value here. This is the 1st place I’ve felt the most free with all this online. None of the other boards/websites I’m on talk about these things to the degree they are on here. So my wildness has stayed more hidden in other places online. But, over time I’m less afraid of what people think! It feels great. I also know there’s going to be people (especially in my family) that likely won’t ever want to even TRY to understand wildness, etc. But, I’ve been more open with them about it over the years also despite what they think of it. OK, going on here (no shock with my track record), but just wanted to get these things out there after reading this post.
Laura, there are plenty of women who do try to break up relationships, but they aren’t professionals; we have no motive to do so while someone who had feelings for a man might. H.L. Mencken defined puritanism as “The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.” Puritans are miserable, fearful people (often but not always religious) who hate sex and pleasure and want to keep others from enjoying them. They oppose prostitution, campaign against porn and stripping, support the prohibition of drugs and alcohol, etc. Neofeminists are puritans, and so are “nutritionists” who devote their lives to trying to prove every good-tasting food is bad for you.
Also, don’t worry that you’re violating my guidelines; as I said in the column, it’s pretty hard to tick me off and most people who do have to work pretty hard at it. Sailor Barsoom will tell you that even though we’ve known each other online for years and often disagreed, he hasn’t actually ever gotten me angry. 🙂
Laura and I have (surprise!) somewhat differing views on the character of a certain ex-girlfriend of mine. But the truth is, I did have to cut off all contact with her. Sometimes you can’t still be friends, and that sucks, but there it is.
Tim asks about stigma, and I thought of strippers. Stripper are not criminals-by-definition the way hookers are, but there is still a stigma attached to being a stripper. Same with porn: when people are asked “What do you hope that your little girl grow up to be?” they don’t usually say “Doctor, porn star, lawyer, stripper, physicist…” But I wonder if part of this might be related to the stigma AND illegality of prostitution? Because porn and stripping are thought of as a sort of “almost-whoring” and hey, whoring is so bad it’s against the law.
I don’t really think so; promiscuity isn’t remotely illegal and yet it carries a stigma. I think the stigma of prostitution derives from the bias against female promiscuity, not the other way around.
Not really 100% related, but this might be the reason for so many people, both male & female, hating on female promiscuity i.e. having apparently indiscriminate sexual relations: because our caveman brains don’t know about birth control & instantly equate sex with definite pregnancy & kids which always consumed paternal resources in the ancestral environment. The video basically addresses the difference between male & female jealousy that had been discussed once in the comments but it was probably one of those times when the conversation deviates organically and I couldn’t find the thread again. I only remember that you and Andrea were there. You were right, there’s too many women out there scared about someone stealing their man, or rather his monneyyyy!!! The more I delve into evo psych, the more I despair about the innately materialistic nature of man… 🙁
https://youtu.be/71wNEg_Rbh8
Honestly, Trace explains Evo Psych better than most psychologists themselves 🙂
And this video is only around 3 min long so I think you could find the time of day to give it a look-see.
Oh, and it also provides some more proof that gender & sexuality are biological as we’ve always maintained 😀
Hhhmmmnnn……
Yeah, I think you’ve got something there. Of course, a promiscuous woman is often told “You’re acting like a whore!” but yeah, it probably flows promiscuity—–>prostitution rather than the other way around.
I suspect that whenever any stigma can be removed from any one of these things, it lessens it a touch on the others. If stripping and porn were against the law, would there be ANY chance for prostitution? As more people get the idea that a promiscuous woman might, maybe, a few of them every now and then, just possibly be a decent human being (even though, you know), that helps strippers, hookers, and pornsters (surely they’re not all “stars”).
So: let’s take the stigma of illegality off of the hookers, and make life a little better for all the strippers, pornsters, and wild women out there.
Dear Sailor Barsoom, THANK YOU! The term “wild woman” was used by someone other than me! YES! I haven’t posted this yet, but I did a search on the website I used to find my last “sex only” friend and found 140 something pages of women seeking men. Yes, some of the women are looking for a relationship. But, it’s a website that has a huge emphasis on being for those who want sex within their relationships, seeking out “sex only” friends, etc. Some only want phone sex relationships or pen pals. But, all these things show at least a degree of “wildness” in these women. I love that! There’s a ton more pages of men seeking women and that didn’t surprise me with my experience with ads. But, at least the men have SOME women to contact on there, thank God!
@Laura:
I figured people here had read enough of your posts that they would know what I meant if I said “wild woman.” Why should I make up a new term if everybody already knows yours? So yeah, wild woman it is (although it almost sounds like you’re talking about one of the various female Tarzans which came out in the early days of comics).
What you are saying then is that this problem is intractable; there are too many competing interests, and legalization will therefore never happen.
BTW, I go to http://www.backpage.com when I want to see what is going on with regard to sex workers. What’s going on here? Is this a loophole? Clearly, escorts are advertising their service. If prostitution is illegal, then how is a website like this able to exist?
Tim – As a companion, I provide time and companionship ONLY. Under NO circumstances do I ever accept compensation for any sexual services as that would be illegal and we all know that ain’t cool.
🙂
I wonder if this stance was ever tested in court…
PS
Don’t flame me.
A) I always wear fire-proof pants
B) You should know I’m with you all the way
😉
Ahhh ok, I got you Kelly.
nudge nudge wink wink;)
Not remotely. There were plenty of people who were opposed to legalization of abortion, granting of civil rights to various groups, etc, but they happened anyway because in our system we don’t need to get a majority to agree in order to strike down unjust laws; we merely need to get judges to recognize that those laws are unconstitutional, which as I have pointed out before they are.
Escorts can advertise because there is no “crime” until they have sex, and unless a girl says “I will do x sex act for y payment” she is not legally a prostitute. Of course no escort ever says this, so police have to lie in order to bring charges. In other words, police are encouraged to break some laws in order to enforce others, which as many have pointed out is one of the major causes of ever-increasing police corruption.
OT: Is there a WordPress guide to including formatting and links into a comment? I see you and Kelly doing it and, needless to say, I feel the urge myself… 😉
Vlad, the formatting is done by enclosing codes within paired less than/greater than signs () both before and after the text you wish to modify, with a slash (/) before the code in the second set. In other words, if I type {em}this{/em} but substitute the lt/gt signs for the braces, it will show up in finished form like this. You can also use “b” for bold and “blockquote” to get an indented quote as I often do. Links are a bit more complicated; if you just put in your link WordPress will automatically parse it (as in Tim’s post about Backpage above) but if you want an embedded link as in my post above you need to type this: {a href=”url of link”}text you wish to turn into a hyperlink{/a} but of course used paired signs instead of braces, as in this link to yesterday’s post.
Thanks so much!
I suspected something like that.
So, I shall attempt to put my limited knowledge of HTML to good use in my comments here.
🙂
I am anarchist in principle, though I am registered to vote in self-defense and usually vote Democratic, especially since the turn of the millennium.
I think one of the best things about the Internet is its being basically anarchic. The fact that it exists as a protected space due to the actions of national governments (in most places) may or may not be instructive….
I totally agree! 🙂
I’m curious; does your screen name refer to the Wonder Woman villain of the same name?
Really good debate going on right now at http://www.avoiceformen.com. ‘Andrea’ writes in her comment:
my life, my well-being, my income, the safety and security of my children depends on traditional female power. I am a housewife. I free my husband of all domestic work and organize his life so that his career has priority and I make sure that he is in physical and mental condition to do that work. I also make sure he enjoys his work and feels loved and appreciated. I RESPECT him, in other words.
Basically, Paul Elam equates traditional marriage with prostitution. I kind of agree, because Andrea is admitting that she gets comfort and security in exchange for sex.
It’s an interesting debate; made me think of this blog.
Andrea posts here as well. 🙂
LOL was going to say that SOUNDS like our Andrea 🙂
Definitions can be stretched so far as to be meaningless. At that point, one might get a sense of personal satisfaction from it but there isn’t much left of logical value. For e.g., producers of apples require employees, apples are a tangible good, apples can be bought and sold – Volvo production requires employees, Volvos are a tangible good and can be bought and sold, therefore Volvos are apples.
Using the above logic, which states that exchanging sex for something you want is prostitution, Andrea’s husband is also a whore. He has sex with Andrea in exchange for an orgasm.
Personally, I’m of the opinion that this isn’t really the point. If Andrea and her husband are in an enjoyable, mutually fulfilling relationship then they should be left the fuck alone to get it on three times a night without others worrying what the necessary label is for that.
BUT male orgasms are a default by-product of sex and aren’t “given” by their partners. Thus, the male orgasm isn’t the commodity, the sex is. The female orgasm being more elusive might be called a commodity, but there’s no demand. There’s plenty of women who don’t orgasm but they don’t go crazy like the sex-deprived men sometimes do.
And with humans sex is by & large a female choice. Otherwise it’s not sex, it’s rape. Therefore, heterosexual men are only capable of buying sex, not selling it and thus, Andrea’s husband can never be a whore until he starts letting gay men shove themselves into his orifices for pay 🙂
Damn, I’m proud of that little argumentYou’ll have to go the article to understand the context, at http://www.avoiceformen.com
I’m not the kind of guy to judge people; I am a social libertine. I was simply surprised by her admission: she has a fixed price for what she is bartering. blow-jobs for material comfort. Ultimately, I suppose that may be the only reason for men and women to get together. After all, it cannot be entirely for good conversation.
So, I hope you don’t think I am judging Andrea. In fact, I kind of think it makes her husband look a little foolish. But who am I to judge? I’m not seeing anyone but escorts right now, and I feel like I’m getting the best deal of all.
Goodness, Tim, I don’t think he’s foolish at all; quite the opposite! He was perceptive enough to know a good deal when he saw it and wise enough to snatch it up when it was available; few people of either sex are so fortunate. 🙂
Hi Tim! It’s me, Andrea!
How funny is it that my husband’s name is Tim, too? I’ll try to keep the two of you straight 😉
You are kind of misrepresenting what I said over at AVFM. To be clear, let’s break this into two parts:
1. If trading sex for money is prostitution, then yes, I am a prostitute. And? One has to accept that there is something WRONG with trading sex for money in order to take that as an insult. I can assure you, I do not. If anything, I regret that I didn’t have a little more awareness when my sexual value was higher.
Prostitutes are just women, Tim. Fully human in all aspects and otherwise identical to housewives. I just have one client. That’s the difference.
And trust me, there are many days when I wish I had more than one! Boys in shorts! Gah!
2. Housewives, at AVFM anyway, are accused of being fat ugly cows uninterested in sex. I was simply pointing out that this is not true. I have no problem meeting my husband’s sexual needs, and because I have a very relaxed and comfortable life, I am rarely too stressed out to be in the mood. Together, we have created a life for ourselves that involves lot of physical time together. It’s a priority. For both of us. I’m not interested in trading that time for money. And neither is he.
While I understand that I COULD destroy my husband the way so many men at AVFM have been destroyed, I neither desire nor relish that truth. I think divorce and family laws SUCK and I wish they were not so virulently anti-male. I would like to see them change into something more sane and balanced. I am coming to understand that the men at AVFM have been badly hurt and that they need that space to express their anger.
I think it’s terribly amusing that they fling the word “whore” at me, as if that were supposed to boil my blood in my veins.
I used to have this wonderful super tight balck t-shirt (that I got in a market in Shanghai) that said FAKE across the front in sparkly silver letters. I think I’m going to get a new one that says WHORE.
I know Brandy already told you this a few days ago, but…I LOVE YOU! 😀
Hi Andrea,
I’m not judging you, I’m sure you’re a fine person. No, my dilemma and I think some guys in general is they find a woman who’s price is extortionate. I don’t really think supporting a wife is the same as legalized prostitution. Even if it was, so what? For centuries men supported women, and in exchange they got sex and companionship. But women didn’t have options back then. It was like being a slave, so I can understand the woman’s movement. I get that. Still, the situation today has reversed; now men are the helpless little bitches. We don’t really have a say if our kid will be born, which is probably the way it should be, but it’s a little odd being relegated to sperm donor. There are all kinds of dehumanizing terms to call men, now. “Bio-dad” has entered the lexicon, referring obviously to a kid’s biological father. I always get a little ticked when I overhear a woman refer to her ex-husband as her kid’s “Bio-dad”. Of course then we have “Dead-beat Dad”. And on and on.
As for men taking on the female role while the woman takes on the male role, that’s probably a disaster in the making. People have tried, it just doesn’t work. No matter how many times women say it, it doesn’t reflect reality: women -in aggregate- don’t want to compete at the highest levels, in politics and in business. Most women want to be taken care of.
But as far as your relationship goes, I don’t think you’re a whore. That would mean all wives from the beginning of marriage were whores, which I don’t think is true. The guys over at AVFM probably prefer the woman works and contributes equal finances. That’s also a disaster, though. If there are kids then usually the woman stays home. Nobody can have it all!
Cheers!
The guys at AVFM who think women should “work and contribute equal finances” are delusional; they’re brainwashed by the feminists and don’t even realize it. A woman who contributes equal finances is holding down two full-time jobs; that isn’t fair and she will resent it, which leads to divorce and suing for alimony to get her “back pay”. If some of these guys pushed their wives to work at that level they are equally to blame for their divorce and later victimization as their ex-wives are.
I love her too and her husband is not at all foolish. If I had a woman who kept my house, cooked my meals, did my laundry, home schooled my children, fucked me, and organized my affairs all with a smile on her face I would be happy to support her financially. I am notoriously awful at doing all the above for myself.
This was the eventual dynamic in both serious relationships I’ve had; both with men who very much resented me for taking the “male” role and consequently became quite abusive. I sometimes wonder if I unconsciously sought out men like that because I wanted someone to make my life comfortable and support me in my goals like Andrea does for her husband (no it certainly was not because I wanted someone lazy and abusive; my self esteem is just fine thank you). The difference is that she does so happily without resentment. Hell, her husband is lucky.
You’re probably a high-testosterone woman, Kelly. Lots of it circulating in your blood. This is good in some ways because it means you likely have a high sex drive and experience more orgasms than most women. On the other hand, you probably also have a manjaw and manhands, and the faintest trace of hair on your forearms. Additionally, you may have a deep, baritone voice. If you become too masculine, then yes, whatever guy you are involved with will start to wonder what is going on. It’s not supposed to be two dudes together, but one dude and one chick. You’ll have to force yourself to be feminine. Then again, for me, I like to do all those things like cooking and cleaning. But it never works in real life, or at least seldomly. Women don’t dig guys who are kitchen-bitches. I’d cook for ya, but would you respect that?
LOL Tim, I’m about as feminine as it gets; my favorite color is pink, I wear pretty dresses and teeter around in high heels daily, and am built like Marilyn Monroe. Although I definitely have a strong personality, I highly doubt anyone would have much concern that I’m becoming too masculine.
Since I don’t like keeping house, I never thought it unreasonable to expect a man to do these things if he wasn’t otherwise employed. If this makes me masculine than I suppose not working makes a man feminine? Well, lemme tell ya what – it does not.
While my choice in partners is completely my responsibility, the fact that someone else wanted a free ride and wasn’t happy with its reality is not.
Do I, as a woman, want to be taken care of? Of course. However, see, I have this funny particularity about my freedom; I do not like being told what to do, am unwilling to trade my freedom for security, and have yet to meet anyone who has made me feel differently. Perhaps one day, but not to this point.
However you are totally right about one thing – men taking on the female role while the woman takes on the male role is a complete disaster. I like a man who cooks, but I also like a man who works. I do not like anyone, male or female, taking advantage of a situation.
Therefore, no, I wasn’t suggesting that I want you to cook for me…I was suggesting that I want Andrea to cook for me 🙂
I would totally cook for you, Kelly 🙂
“Do I, as a woman, want to be taken care of? Of course. However, see, I have this funny particularity about my freedom; I do not like being told what to do, am unwilling to trade my freedom for security, and have yet to meet anyone who has made me feel differently. Perhaps one day, but not to this point.”
I was like this for most of my adult life. Then I met my husband. He has an uncanny way of making me feel totally cherished, protected, loved and still completely free. We are together because we WANT to be. There is no one else I would rather hang out with.
It was worth the wait!
And on the rare occasion he DOES try to tell me what to do, I have my favourite song from Robyn that I play for him: Don’t Fucking Tell Me What To Do
Are we Robyn fans here? I love her!
Tim, you’re confusing the effects of high in-utero testosterone (HIUT) with high post-pubescent testosterone (HPPT). Manjaw and manhands tend to derive from the former, and hair and a high sex drive from the latter. A deep voice may have nothing to do with either, and no woman (barring a giantess) can be a baritone; it’s a specifically male range which is dependent on a larger chest capacity and laryngeal volume than any woman ever has. The deepest female voices are contraltos, which are essentially the same pitch-range as the male tenor. It would take years and years of high pubescent testosterone levels (probably masculine levels, i.e, more than 10 times the normal female level) to produce a masculine level of laryngeal development.
I love to cook; I find it the next most satisfying thing after writing. If we lived in a polygamous society and my husband took a younger wife or two, I would keep the cooking, dishwashing and clothes-washing for myself (with assistance when needed, as in feast preparation) and let the other wives do the dusting, cleaning, vacuuming, etc. 🙂
Speaking of polygamy, they get persecution/lies thrown on them also. Disgusting. I’d peronally never be part of polygamy, but think they have the right to do it as long as everyone is consenting, etc. I’m a fan of the show “Big Love” and am very disappointed it just ended, but am also glad it ended on a HIGH note. This was the same with another HBO show “6 Feet Under”. It’s sad when a series ends, but 1 little bit of happiness within that is when it ends before the show goes downhill.
Dear Tim, I have a high sex drive and don’t have any of the physical things you’re talking about. As far as men who cook, I love them! My Dad was 1 of them and part of our chores was to cook for the family. He was ahead of his time in some ways for a man born in 1926 and I love that. He also helped with changing diapers, watching us, etc. He taught my brothers and I to work hard and accomplish as much as possible WITHOUT lying, power games, etc. Reading as much as possible was emphasized also.
Laura I discussed similar points related to polygamy here http://sincerelykellyjames.wordpress.com/2011/02/28/of-prostitution-and-polygamy/
and referred to Big Love here
http://sincerelykellyjames.wordpress.com/2011/03/22/where-men-and-mountains-meet/
Dear Kelly James, your posts are great! Thank you! It’s wonderful you stand up for the polygamy people. I personally would never do polygamy, but these people shouldn’t be persecuted, laughed at, etc. The last US presidential election the man I wanted to vote for talked about visiting polygamy people while campaigning and saying he would work to stop the persecution, improve their legal standing, etc. I was pretty shocked at 1st because this man was/is a Christian preacher. However, like me, he personally isn’t into certain sexual things, but he wants others to have the right to do them. After getting over my shock, this information also confirmed for me I wanted to vote for him. Thanks again for the links and keep up the good work of standing up for polygamy people. Am curious, have you ever watched “Sister Wives”? It’s on either Learning or Discovery channel and is about a polygamous family.
Tim,
I read enough to suspect that Andrea was speaking with sexual honesty, and the men were choosing to run around screaming, “OMGOMG all women are whooooores”. It seems, from Andrea’s follow-up here, that was a fairly accurate reading.
Close but IMO it’s only touching the iceberg. Man and woman are symbiotic creatures. One need only to view a happy couple to realize the man is getting much more than sex and the woman much more than money out of the deal, but since those two are so emotionally super-charged in our foolish society, people focus on them.
Conversely, one need only to view an unhappy couple to see the damage two symbiotic creatures can inflict on each other, and that the tools with which to do so are not limited to sex and money.
Andrea,
It’s like I told Maggie the other day. You’re speaking in Prostitute but they’re listening in Repressive Christian Archetype. (LOL.)
You, milady, deserve every bit of the title Honorary Whore. You’re a treasure and I want to feed you cupcakes and keep you for my very own.
LOL! 😀
Yes Emily, I can’t speak for the other guys at AVFM but for me personally, I have always found the roles men have to be limiting. We know there is a sexual market; always have been and always will. No matter what, a man is paying for pussy. So ‘careers’ are paraded before young men so they can pick what they want to do, and therefore what kind of pussy they will get. A professor, like Andrea’s husband, has done well, but it sounds like not simply because he is a ‘professor’. After all, she says she knows of a neurosurgeon who is on the cusp of losing all of his wealth because of his bitter wife. Can you imagine working that hard to become a neurosurgeon only to lose it all and look like a fool in front of everyone?
So I think what is happening is that because women have entered the workforce en masse, people are marrying inter-career, ie cops marry cops, lawyers marry lawyers. Women still drop out of the labor force for 5 or 8 years to raise kids, though. To simply be a housewife – and nothing else, is an oddity. I’m sure Andrea has a degree, probably in Art History, to fall back on.
I’m sure Andrea has a degree, probably in Art History, to fall back on.
MBA, actually.
But Art History is cool, too. 😉
Hell, Andrea, we can’t win for losing can we? Taking on the role of breadwinner must mean I’m “masculine” yet taking on the role of housewife must mean you’re incapable of anything but.
Tim – from your own mouth – “I have always found the roles men have to be limiting”
You don’t say???
As you seem like a halfway intelligent individual you must recognize the underlying lack of logic inherent in your philosophy.
You’re doing the same thing to us as you feel has been done to you
LOL #GOTCHA
Well really, ALL roles are limiting, aren’t they? I mean, that’s the nature of a role. Act outside certain parameters and one changes from one role to another.
Sorry if I implied you were uber-masculine, Kelly. I don’t think so. I think what we are talking about is a delicate balancing act. You are the type of woman who wants to be able to do her own thing, and work outside the house. I don’t have anything against that. I would find it weird if a woman didn’t have something going on. But a healthy relationship between a man and a woman has a greater likelihood of lasting if the man is the dominant one, in my opinion. Most women would rather surrender to a man with purpose and ambition than to settle for a man who doesn’t know what he wants.
Just in case you didn’t read her full comment (which I probably should have posted) she does go into great length into what she knows she could do if she wanted – no-fault divorce including taking half of his earnings, future earnings and retirement/pension income, the house and the children, ultimately leaving him in a one bedroom apartment. I think this probably explains my reticence towards marriage. Great deal for women, but that’s an awfully high price for blow jobs, which is a fungible resource. Unless of course we’re talking fantastic bj’s…like deepthroat, which few women can do. But even then it’s still too high a price.
When you say that you think women have an over-inflated sense of worth, is this what you are referring to, or is it something else?
Yes, that’s what I’m referring to. Many American women seem to believe that the sex and companionship they provide to their husbands in a marriage, no matter how short-lived and unsatisfactory, is literally worth half his goods and an indefinitely-continuing stipend. This is nothing more than a terminal case of platinum pussy syndrome.
Deep throat blow-jobs? What’s so hard about that?
You have to buy me shoes after that, though.
heh
Fifteen years ago I would’ve agreed with you, Andrea, then I saw lots of other women who seemed completely unable to do them. In most cases, I think they’re just afraid to try. 😐
Or not properly motivated to 🙂
I have a sister-out-law (i.e., she married and then divorced my brother) who felt that she needed a bit of help with the kid, and sought child support. My brother was willing to give some, but she felt it wasn’t enough. She abandoned this when she realized he couldn’t be compelled to give just a little more; she had to utterly ream him or else drop it. She dropped it.
I wonder how many “horrible bitch ex-wives” are in fact faced with the choice between utterly reaming the ex, or nothing. Some of them might be willing to settle for less (but not settle for nothing), if they only had the choice.
And yes, I do know that some ex-wives really are horrid bitches, just like some ex-husbands are total bastards.
I have no doubt that you’re correct; there is no such thing as “subtle” where the government is concerned. Government lawyers, cops, etc are like finish carpenters equipped by their employers with only two tools: a fire axe and a sledgehammer. 🙁
The scariest words in the English language, “I’m from the government and I’m here to help.” ~ Ronald Reagan.
Yeah, I just hate roads.
Now, Sailor B, that’s exactly why I used that particular analogy. As C.S.P. Schofield pointed out in a recent comment on The Agitator (comment #27),
Dear Sailor B, yes, I love roads also. Please realize there ARE great government programs. 1 of them not many know about (unfortunately) is the Family/Medical Leave Act. This program has literally SAVED MY JOB for nearly 10 years. It protects your job is you have to take leave for pregnancy, surgery, etc. It also protects if you have chronic health problems and are out sick more than most people. This is what I use it for. 1 of my bosses told me if not for FMLA I would have been fired years ago for attendance. I find it an outrage that people get fired for attendance when they HAVE chronic health problems and are ALSO doing all THEY can to get better, etc., but without this program that would be happening a TON more! I look forward to the day I don’t need the program and only went on it out of necessity (to keep my job), but if it weren’t there…the thought is horrible! There’s also programs like food stamps and Medicaid that make a huge difference in peoples’ lives. Social Security disability is another great 1. Yes, I know the way some of these programs are run is horrible. But, what would life be like for some without them? Actually, FMLA doesn’t have me “jump through any hoops” you could say. I fill out paperwork every time I’m out for the health problems it covers and also track my absences in my own records. My employer keeps the paperwork once I turn it in, etc. Once a year my doctor fills out new paperwork saying what I have wrong, etc. I’m blessed in that he does this for free. Like Sailor B, I get tired of the “all things from government” are bad mentality. I like to give credit where it’s due in this area also.
Sorry, but I too get tired of it. It’s very fashionable these days, but ug.
And Laura, you might want to see how Ron Paul feels about FMLA. I don’t know, though I can guess (and would about bet money) what Rand has to say about it.
I think you’re right about those fellows who insist their wives contribute equally financially to the relationship. It means much will be neglected domestically.
Or even more likely, sexually. 🙁
There’s also relationships where 1 person is disabled and the other pays all their bills completely on their own. There’s also the type where 1 is disabled and the other chooses not to work for various reasons so is financially supported by the disabled 1. This was the type of relationship my parents had when they were older. I’m pointing these things out as they are real and the less common types of relationships should get equal time given to them as far as talking about them, etc. also.
But Laura, those types of relationships are based on other “coin”; the payer DOES get something out of it, an emotional component, or he wouldn’t continue to do it. A sense of obligation to duty goes a long way, but it doesn’t create relationship stability or reward.
And of course, there are exceptions to every rule.
You’re right in that duty isn’t healthy in some cases. It wasn’t in my parents’ case, but that’s another story I won’t get into at this point. I’m convinced, though, that sticking with someone disabled because you want to and want to keep the original commitment can be a wonderful thing. I have a great concern for the disabled because of my Dad plus others I know, have known, etc. In some ways they have harder decisions to make regarding who works, who pays the bills, etc., than 2 able bodied people who are able to work at least most of their lives. With them the decisions can involve more than just which roles they WANT to take. I agree there’s exceptions and, yes, duty isn’t always healthy.
Don’t answer this if you don’t want to, but I am curious, what did you study in university? I’m thinking you had a broad, liberal education.
My bachelor’s degree was in English, my master’s in Library and Information Science.
Hey! My BA is also in English!!!
No MA though. 🙁
Easy rules to live by. But that’s not why I’m commenting.
The quote, “That government is best which governs least.” I use it all the time and misattribute it to Jefferson.
I feel just a little bit more informed today.
It’s commonly mis-attributed to Jefferson, and in fact I used to attribute it to him myself. He certainly said some things which were very much like it. 🙂
Just discovered your blog today while researching the psychology of the girlfriend experience. I had a great laugh at your “I’m a whore” intro at a dinner party. My wife & I have some woman friends (neighbors actually) who did exactly that, but not seriously. We had both of them join us at a little get together at a bar after league bowling one saturday evening. The two women (Linda & Mary) were deeply engaged in conversation with various old friends of ours at the table, when one of the wives asked them what they did for a living. Linda, a diminutive figure, calmly stated while cutting her food with knife & fork that she was a social worker. The questioner then responded, looking at Linda’s friend Mary, and what about you? Without missing a beat and not even looking up from her plate, Linda quickly & quietly responded, “she’s a whore”. The tabel was stunned, my wife & I began to roar in laughter and soon everyone realized it was a joke. To this day (6 years later), we call her “Mary the whore”.
I expect I will enjoy your blog tremendously as I work my way through it in the coming months. You see I am 57 & a new hobbyist who saw my first provider 2 months ago and have seen 12 additional girls since. I did this in search of the girlfriend experience for myself. I finally found that one perfect GFE for me and she has blown me away. The sex with all of the girls was great, but I see my GFE girl every week almost exclusively now and it’s not just for the sex. The sex is great, but the closeness, caring, and loving each other for just a few hours at a time has turned me into a more caring man, and a better husband to my wife. It has shown me that the human capacity to love & care is bottomless. I am overjoyed to have found this wonderful experience and expect to continue to grow from it. It’s sad that American society takes such a puritan view of sex & relationships. I would be shunned for what I do and can never tell any friends or family about it. Yet it feels so right, and so much other good seems to come out in me for having pursued the real GF experience.
Anyway, just my .02, as a retired provider, I thought you should know. I look forward to working my way through your writings.
Welcome to the site, Jack! Please contribute often; I really want to see more voices of clients on here, especially since with the rise of the “Swedish Model” y’all are being vilified more than we are nowadays!
Thank you for the welcome Maggie. I will try to contribute often. I am an active hobbyist who travels for work every week. I will try to avoid being too wordy. I have had to write many lengthy technical & proposal summaries over the years for bid responses (I’m in sales) so once I start to write, I tend to go on…and on.
Anyway, I’m a fairly active hobbyist and I do have what I consider strong opinions on both client & provider behaviors I have seen & experienced. I would hope to contribute some of that perspective if it’s valuable. I enjoy discussions about the hobby but unfortunately, it’s not really something I can discuss with my wife.
The sex is great, but the closeness, caring, and loving each other for just a few hours at a time has turned me into a more caring man, and a better husband to my wife. It has shown me that the human capacity to love & care is bottomless. I am overjoyed to have found this wonderful experience and expect to continue to grow from it.
This, Jack, is why my husband has a pass. What he does away on conference is up to him. All I know is he comes back a new man. More vital, more focused on me, more caring and confident and just plain terrific. We live in a pretty small town, so I don’t think a weekly GFE would work for him.
God knows I try, but a lot of the shit that goes on at his workplace is just so fucking boring. I get tired of listening to the same shit, year after year. I DO try, but hell, I am eternally grateful to my professional sisters who listen to him and return him to me better than they found him. I’m not threatened by professional girls.
I’m grateful.
Bless you Andrea. I wish more women would understand this aspect of the hobby. Professional women do not represent a threat to their marriage.
I love my wife. I’ve been with her for 35 years and have no desire or plans to ever leave her. I plan to live out my days with her when we retire. I had this very discussion wit my GFE “friend” yesterday. She understands this need and experiences it herself. It’s why she’s so good at what she does….. not just the sex. I think it’s a human need that is scorned by the society that we live in. The experience taught me how to love my wife even more than I already did, how to be more romantic, how to anticipate her needs. It has been “training” in a way that my wife benefits from & she doesn’t even realize. Unfortunately, she will never understand so it is better left unsaid.
I actually stumbled onto your site trying to find quotes about courteseans (sp). I am at a kinda wierd place in my life and I have to say that I agree with the power of a woman to make a choice at how she wants to live her life and control her life. I feel that society as a whole is completely tramatized by the thought that a woman my enjoy her sexuality. I never truly did understand why it was so well thought of for a man to be very “experienced” and so looked down upon for a woman to be the same way. I think that there certainly is a difference between love and sex…and if a woman chooses to be a sexual being that is her decision…
Welcome to the site, Kelli; in addition to the epigrams on the daily columns, you can look at my “Quotes” page for a concentrated selection. 🙂
Tim,
I don’t believe a word you say about how you seem to think that women should be housewives. I will always have a career, and I will never give it up for any man. I am not going to be dominated over, I want an equal relationship. I am never having children, if you ask how I can possibly achieve this, because I simply have no desire to lose my independence in order to follow society’s expectations. I hate dominating men and all I want is equality and freedom. And don’t say that it makes me any less feminine either.
I just wanted to say THANK YOU for an honest uncomplicated view of the most complicated, clumsy, embarrassing and fun process in living.
I’ve taken a lot of pleasure in reading this blog especially when I found the two my favourite SF authors are quoted freely.
Praise where it’s due, you’re doing goods things here, keep on!
It’s my sincere pleasure! Since you mentioned favorite authors, you might like this post on mine.