There ain’t no such thing as a free lunch. – unknown origin, popularized by Robert A. Heinlein
It should be obvious, yet many reasonably intelligent people refuse to recognize it; one cannot get something for nothing. It’s a basic law of the universe; everything has to come from somewhere. In human terms, if someone offers something at no apparent cost to the recipient, it means that someone else has borne that cost; if the giver and recipient are close friends we call this a “gift”, but if they are strangers or near-strangers it nearly always means that the donor wants something of value from the recipient. In most cases, what he wants is both obvious and fair; for example, literal “free lunch” buffets at bars are subsidized by more expensive drinks and draw increased traffic to the business. But when the goods being offered for “free” are very expensive and the donor’s motivation is not readily apparent, it would behoove the recipient to be very wary and to remember another popular adage: “If it seems too good to be true, it probably is.”
Case in point: this October 16th story from the Los Angeles Times, called to my attention by regular reader Gorbachev:
David Dutcher met Sharon on Match.com in late 2008, a few months after separating from his wife. “We had a lot in common,” he recalled. Sharon loved four-wheel-drive trucks and sports…[and] was tall, slender, blond and beautiful. She moaned that she had not had sex in a long time. She told him he had large, strong hands and wondered if that portended other things. She described his kisses as “yummy.” “It felt a lot like Christmas,” said Dutcher, 49, a tall, burly engineer with wavy red hair. On their second date, Sharon suggested they join one of her friends “who was partying because she had closed a real estate deal,” Dutcher said. They drove to an Italian restaurant…[where] Sharon’s friend, “Tash,” was…pounding down shots. The women fiddled with Dutcher’s tie and massaged his neck and shoulders. [Tash] unbuttoned her blouse to reveal generous cleavage. “I am way over my head with these girls,” he remembered thinking. “I hadn’t been out dating in a while.”
Sharon had trouble finishing her tequila shots and asked Dutcher to help…[then she] suggested going to a house with a hot tub that Tash was housesitting, Dutcher said. He followed them in his truck. Within a few minutes, a flashing red light appeared in his rearview mirror. The officer said he had been swerving. Three months later, Dutcher’s wife filed a motion in their divorce case, telling the court that her soon-to-be former husband had been arrested on suspicion of drunk driving and that she feared for their children’s safety. The judge ordered that Dutcher’s visits be supervised.
Then, earlier this year, Dutcher received a letter from…[the district attorney which] contained a transcript of a police interview with Christopher Butler, a private detective and the subject of a state and federal criminal investigation…[The letter said that] the women…worked for Butler’s detective agency. Sharon…was a former Las Vegas showgirl. A man who once worked for Butler…told authorities Butler arranged for men to be arrested for drunk driving at the behest of their ex-wives and their divorce lawyers — and that entrapment was only one of many alleged misdeeds. Butler, 49, a former police officer, was arrested in February. In addition to setting up at least five DUIs, he sold drugs for law enforcement officers and helped them open and operate a brothel…Butler said his accomplices reasoned that they could shield their illegal businesses because any complaints would be investigated by a state-run narcotics task force, which one of the officers headed.
…In May, the FBI took over the probe, interviewing Dutcher and other ex-husbands arrested on suspicion of drunk driving. A federal grand jury indicted Butler and two of the officers in August and September. The charges included drug dealing, running a prostitution business and illegal possession of a weapon. More indictments are expected. A third officer, implicated by Butler in the DUIs, faces state charges of accepting bribes to make arrests…Butler paid his decoys $25 an hour for four-hour minimums. The women worked in pairs. One drank heavily with the target and the other drove. Butler videotaped the encounters from a nearby table. When the man got into his vehicle, Butler tipped off police…
[After getting the letter from the D.A.] Dutcher…contacted others he had learned had been set up, including Declan Woods, a contractor arrested on suspicion of driving under the influence in 2007. Woods’ ex-wife was represented by Mary Nolan, the same divorce attorney who worked for Susan Dutcher…Woods’ ordeal began with a call for a kitchen remodel estimate. The prospective client turned out to be an attractive, flirtatious brunet [sic]. She told him she was new in town, a writer, and wondered what he was doing that night. He said he planned to grab dinner at a local cafe…The woman showed up with a friend that evening. They went to a nearby bar, where the three drank…the brunet [sic] was so aggressive he twice pushed her off his lap…Looking back, he said, he should have realized something was wrong. “Things like that don’t happen to blokes like me,” said the British-born Woods. “But the alcohol kicks in, you are having a good time, and you think, what the hell.” The women suggested going to a house with a hot tub. Woods hopped into his truck and followed them. He was pulled over almost immediately…
Prosecutors offered to help Dutcher and Woods remove their DUI convictions and approved the dismissal of charges against the three other men. Dutcher obtained a court order last month to expunge his conviction. Even though the men had been drinking, prosecutors said Butler’s stings violated a little-used 19th century law that makes it a felony to conspire to subject another person to arrest. The female decoys have not been charged…
Before I get to my main point, I’d like to call your attention to a few details. First, that “Sharon” and her friends have absolutely no self-respect, selling their sexual services for half of what a cheap streetwalker might charge. Furthermore, they demonstrate the topsy-turviness of the American legal system; being paid to flirt with a man, lie to him and set him up for arrest in a sleazy plot to deny him visitation with his kids is apparently legal, but being paid a mutually agreeable fee to honestly provide sex isn’t, and I’ll bet “Sharon” thinks she isn’t a whore. Furthermore, why haven’t the lawyers who paid Butler to frame their clients’ husbands been charged with conspiracy along with Butler and the cops? And though it’s almost a throwaway detail in the story, here’s another example of cops doing the sort of things they get paid to nail other people to trees for doing.
But the main lesson is this: Guys, Penthouse letters are fiction. “Things like that” don’t happen to blokes like Woods, Dutcher or anybody else. The Myth of the Wanton is just that; a myth. Women who look like Las Vegas showgirls don’t advertise on Match.com, and if they say they haven’t had sex in a long time they either didn’t want it or else they’re lying. They don’t throw themselves at dumpy, goofy-looking, middle-aged guys who aren’t rich or famous, and they ABSOLUTELY DO NOT offer three-ways in hot tubs with their gorgeous friends on the first or second date…unless they’re whores. And if they haven’t asked you to pay them, somebody else has. Free pussy is every bit as mythical as free lunch; if a strange woman offering sex doesn’t ask for cash, she wants something else. If that “something else” is obvious or you can figure it out, and it’s a price you’re willing to pay, by all means go ahead and I hope you have a great time. But please, think with the big head; if you know a chick is out of your league and she’s acting in a way no other woman has ever behaved toward you before, you need to recognize that something is wrong. Sooner or later the bill will be presented, and you may find it’s a lot more than you bargained for.
One Year Ago Today
“Jezebel” starts with control freaks who get off on policing other people’s sexuality, moves on to the lady whom the column is named after, and ends up with the website of the same name. All that, and adult cartoons, too.
I’m wondering: so the women who give sex away and don’t literally charge a cent and also want to keep the cost of everything involved (condoms, etc.) as little as possible for the men they see don’t have any self-respect?
Laura, what are you talking about? Did you ever charge $25/hour to use sex to destroy men’s lives? You clearly got some non-monetary benefit out of what you were doing; these women get nothing but a pittance, unless of course they were misandrist lesbians who enjoy destroying men and so charged very little so they could have the pleasure. 🙁
Dear Maggie, I wrote after you wrote this that the women in the article disgust me and make more ###*** for the women who aren’t like them to fight. I hate it. No, I’ve never done anything like these BITCHES have and never will. Yes, I did get non-monetary benefits from sex only friendships (like great increase in self-esteem, less fear of sex, full recovery from being frigid, etc). I’ll never deny that. But, what I was asking, and sorry if I wasn’t clear enough: do you think that women who purposely don’t charge any $ for sex don’t have self-respect?
It’s all in the motivation. If they get what they’re looking for out of the transaction, they have as much self-esteem as anyone else. If they don’t get what they want but keep doing it anyway, I’d say a bit of self-assessment is in order. But if they DO want money but charge less than a cheap streetwalker, I’d say there’s a definite lack of self-esteem there.
Is anything really free?
I remember studying some Hindu philosophy once, and the idea of “giving” without either receiving something in return – or expecting to receive something in return … almost never happens. In the Hindu teachings – the idea is that you should give yourself to God – without expecting salvation or anything in return for it. That is selfless devotion to God. That’s very hard to do.
If you carry that out … I can donate to a charity. Why did I do that? Is it selflessness? Or is it because … somewhere in me, I get satisfaction from doing it? It makes me feel good to do it. So, in a sense – I contribute to a charity to make myself feel good.
This line of argument, that all actions, from robbing banks to giving to charity to the soldier who throws himself on the grenade to the soldier who throws another soldier on the grenade, are motivated by selfishness, is one of those things that are true, but also bullshit. That is, if you phrase it right and ask just the right questions, you can make a case that hey, the soldier who threw himself on the grenade to save his buddies and the soldier who threw another soldier on the grenade to save himself were both acting to save what they valued most.
Problem is, this almost always get presented as “so they’re both the same.” No they are not. There is a gigantic difference between sacrificing your own life for others and killing somebody else to save your self, and no amount of reduction to “well each acted to protect what he valued” makes it the same because they valued different things.
Maybe you aren’t making this old selfishness-justifying argument. I see something that makes me think maybe you are not. But I really think that this little magic trick needs to be exposed everywhere it shows itself. So I took the opportunity to point out the place where “skip these three” gets thrown in, so that it’s clear that the boy does not have eleven fingers.
– “Things like that” don’t happen to blokes like Woods, Dutcher or *anybody else.*
-The Myth of the Wanton is just that; a myth.
-Women who look like Las Vegas showgirls don’t advertise on Match.com, and if they say they haven’t had sex in a long time they either didn’t want it or else they’re lying.
-They don’t throw themselves at dumpy, goofy-looking, middle-aged guys who aren’t rich or famous.
-They ABSOLUTELY DO NOT offer three-ways in hot tubs with their gorgeous friends on the first or second date…unless they’re whores.
-Free pussy is every bit as mythical as free lunch; if a strange woman offering sex doesn’t ask for cash, she wants something else.
-Sooner or later the bill will be presented, and you may find it’s a lot more than you bargained for.
==============================================================
All life lessons that I now live by, as much as it hurts my male ego, as much as I wanted to believe all of the old untruths.
A few questions, that I’m sure you’ve answered before, so they’re just refreshers:
-Men don’t get this why? Because we don’t want to, or because we obviously don’t intuitively get female biology?
-When does the mental/emotional switch flip inside of a woman and she actually starts to fall in love instead of whoring being just a job?
-I think high school is the last time a man can get free pussy. I’ve read some things on other boards where I’ve heard women say that they were just as horny as the boys and wanted the sex just as much; do you agree with this? Or is that just more “guys like to hear it when girls say they’re horny?”
-How do you account for all the (reported) wild sexcapades of college life? What are women in that age bracket and in that environment thinking?
Men don’t get it for two reasons: Because they don’t want to, and because they’e lied to. he mental switch flips for women in the same way it does for men; when do men start to fall in love instead of just screwing? Same thing.
No, guys can’t get free pussy in high school either; those girls are still doing it for a reason, and that reason probably has less sense behind it as an adult woman’s reason. If anything, the pussy is MORE expensive in high school and university because the guys have less means to pay. For example, despite the publicity about people getting married later, lots of men still get roped in their early 20s; they are blinded by “love” and commit to a lifetime before they even know what life is.
-So, the collective media assault using the myth of the wanton woman, combined with the persona experience of women themselves using it because they know it works on men.
As an aside, this is why I got so upset on your column when I made the comment about women not liking sex, and I got ridiculed because I was talking to a bunch of whores. It still confuses me as a man, as much as you’ve taught me. It irritates me to finally accept the truth only to turn around & hear that women *do* get randy, so I don’t know what to think or trust anymore.
If you’re just using the pussy to get cash/security/attention, fine I understand that. If you can take sex or leave it because you have 1/10th the testosterone I do, fine, I understand that.
What I *don’t* understand, especially after a column like this one, is how women then possibly *do* like./want/get horny over sex, it makes less & less sense to me now. Even if that might sound illogical.
-What *is* the reason in high school then?
-So you’re saying, those college girls are just fucking to get married as well?
Scorch, I told you a very long time ago that most women (about 70%) do like sex; it’s just that liking alone it is insufficient reason for doing it. Ice cream in the hand, remember? Women enjoy sex; we just aren’t so desperate for it that we’ll accept it no matter how it’s presented or pay any price for it the way men do.
There isn’t an one reason in high school any more than there is one reason at any other stage of life. But a few common ones in high school are “love”, curiosity, rebelliousness and the desire to be part of the “cool” crowd. Same deal for university girls, though there you can add manipulation and sex-positive “I can have sex like a man” feminism to the list.
Yeah, my wife got out of bed this morning … and I heard her in the shower. Next thing I know – she’s back in bed smiling at me …
And I know damn well why – she’s got a tiling project that she wants completed – she bought the tile, she planned the layout – but she needed the muscle to lay the tile.
And I’m totally smart enough to figure out this little “quid pro quo” … so for about 40 minutes of fun, I’m now in the middle of an all-day tiling project.
But … I’m totally good with that – to me, it was worth it. LOL
Excuse me while I get back to my project …
“Yeah, my wife got out of bed this morning … and I heard her in the shower. Next thing I know – she’s back in bed smiling at me …
And I know damn well why – she’s got a tiling project that she wants completed – she bought the tile, she planned the layout – but she needed the muscle to lay the tile.
And I’m totally smart enough to figure out this little “quid pro quo” … so for about 40 minutes of fun, I’m now in the middle of an all-day tiling project.”
See, this is why I’m not married.
Don’t no fuckin’ woman bribe me with pussy.
Don’t no fuckin’ woman talk about me like I’m some kinda fuckin’ dog that she can “train.”
And don’t no woman who keeps claiming how she’s so fucking “equal” to me then turn around & use her natural advantages to try and manipulate me into doing what she wants me to do gets anything from me.
I don’t mind this at all! This is male / female interaction and it’s been going on since the dawn of humans. My view is that God split the human being into two separate sexes. I’ve never really felt complete without a woman. Women think differently, I make better decisions when I have a woman who will give me her input.
I mean, some guys go out and buy a gal a dinner – and then expect that she owes them a payoff. I never did – but some do, and women have to deal with that prospect either by turning it down or going along with it.
My wife knows I don’t like being around my in-laws, and when we visit her parents she always calms me down with more sex when we’re there. This makes the visits more pleasant for me.
My wife and I are equal – but we don’t confuse gender roles. We both do the dishes but decorating the house is HER deal (no input from me required nor desired) and security is my deal (and I take absolutely no input from her on that).
If I’m down, or I’m a bit too lazy to lay some tile – she’ll pick me up and motivate me using sex. I know it’s happening – I have no problem with it, and it really does motivate me. The times I’ve been the most ambitious in life have been the times when I had a woman motivating me. Either I wanted to make conditions better for her – or I wanted to draw her attraction.
Women keep sloth out of the male condition. Otherwise – I might lay around all day like a male lion doing nothing productive. Maybe not all men are motivated like this. I can’t see Einstein being motivated in this fashion but I’m no Einstein certainly. I’m a pretty much base male and it really only takes very simple things that appeal to me to get me move in a certain direction.
I just go with the flow – and try not to outthink things. 😀
“If I’m down, or I’m a bit too lazy to lay some tile – she’ll pick me up and motivate me using sex. I know it’s happening – I have no problem with it, and it really does motivate me. The times I’ve been the most ambitious in life have been the times when I had a woman motivating me. Either I wanted to make conditions better for her – or I wanted to draw her attraction.
Women keep sloth out of the male condition. Otherwise – I might lay around all day like a male lion doing nothing productive. Maybe not all men are motivated like this. I can’t see Einstein being motivated in this fashion but I’m no Einstein certainly. I’m a pretty much base male and it really only takes very simple things that appeal to me to get me move in a certain direction.”
Oh okay, thank you for explaining that.
I just have very different reactions…my girlfriend trying to bribe me with pussy is just an insult to my intelligence. All she has to do if she wants me to do something is ‘ask’ me…because my answer will be the same whether she fucks me or not. Making my dick happy doesn’t change my mind about how I feel about something.
I’m ambitious all on my own…I have had the opposite experience. I have been the least productive when I’ve had a woman in my life, with the exception of my very last girlfriend.
I don’t need a woman to motivate me. She would just get on my nerves. Primarily because her ‘motivation’ is just to get me to do what *she* wants me to do, not to make me a better person. I don’t need a girlfriend to help me to grow and become better, I seek that on my own.
Well you and I proof that men aren’t all the same – that’s for sure.
Women do motivate me. When I was playing football I used to go out on the field and I WANTED to do the best I could for my team. But in all honesty, it was the cheerleader, or the captain of the flag squad, or one of the majorettes I was interested in that really motivated me to put 150% into it and take the risks I needed to make the big plays. I wanted them to notice me.
I wouldn’t say that I’d “ruin” my life for a woman. I once dated a girl who was the best I’ve ever seen at reading my mind and my desires and responding to them. And I knew her enthusiasm was because she was looking for a husband really hard. I didn’t give it to her though, because she was a bit of a psycho. But I enjoyed the sex until she kicked me to the curb after realizing I wasn’t going to marry her.
Her next boyfriend married her two weeks after meeting her (she was that good alright!). Hehe … he didn’t have the willpower I had. 😀
They weren’t married long though.
So no – you don’t ruin you life for a woman – but, for me – my male sex drive does heavily influence the way I behave and my motivation for succeeding.
High school and college sex tended to be “paid” in returns to low self-esteem and poorly made decisions involving excessive amounts of alcohol, as I recall it. ^_^;
I remember several “alpha” girls in the early stages of what Maggie calls Platinum Pussy Syndrome, and quite a few “beta” girls working harder at being nice people, developing good senses of humor, tolerance for minor mistakes, compromise, willingness to put effort into getting along instead of expecting it to come entirely from the other party… and so on.
Didn’t date many “alpha” girls in high school, and don’t regret it one bit.
By college, the two types were a bit less polarized; the chubby girls have lost most of they baby fat (transmuted it into curves! ^_^), and the skinny bitches were starting to get that treating everyone like shit leads to reciprocation, and so were trying to be nicer (though some still felt you owed them something for their effort).
However, the former beta’s are still very nice people with more polished social skills; they just got hotter and gained more attention. Sometimes that went to their heads, but more often not. Of course, liberal amounts of flowing alcohol tended to throw any sense of social organization out the window. The great (or not-so-great?) equalizer? Heh…
Moral of the story (for those who feel one is needed):
“Pretty” draws male attention; “Kind” keeps it.
Dear thehumanscorch, yes, I remember that time you were ridiculed. You have my sympathy on that. It disgusted me. A big reason I had sex only friendships WAS WANTING SEX plain and simple. I did it for other reasons also. But, the just plain wanting sex was 1 of the biggest reasons. I was frigid until my late 20’s. There were nothing wrong with me physically. It was all mental/emotional and was the result of verbal sexual abuse. My case and others like it prove how damaging words can be especially from a parent (my abuser was my mother). Anyway, once I started to heal in counseling, the huge sex drive I had started coming alive. I wanted to LIVE in many ways including sexually. All this stuff isn’t as “cut and dried” as men are lead to believe. My case is an example of that. As far as “a switch” goes what the ?? is that? I never “flipped a switch” conciously. Once I started to heal, I woke up sexually. I’d had the DESIRE to be wild sexually for years before counseling. It was just repressed. I had a LOT to work on in counseling besides the frigidity thing. Maybe that’s why I don’t remember flipping any switch. I also don’t fully believe in the “myth of the wanton” and never will. I don’t believe there’s never been 1 woman like that in all of history, sorry. I’ve read about a few I’m convinced were “wantons” (Clara Bow and Louise Brooks come to mind and also some of the women who were in various “free love” groups). Not all women fit into all these same category boxes. I DON’T WANT TO. Like I said, not all this is “cut and dried” in every case. Also, some women are wild because they truly want to HELP the sexually frustrated men. I really like helping the men poor in $ in this way whether they’re poor through their own doing or NOT. There’s also the men who don’t want to see whores. They need help also. I don’t know if my telling you this will help you understand things more, but I’m willing to try.
Yes, Laura, it actually *does* help me, thank you, specifically these statements:
“All this stuff isn’t as “cut and dried” as men are led to believe.”
“Once I started to heal, I woke up sexually.”
As someone recovering from religious abuse, I *really* understand *that* one.
And THIS:
‘Not all women fit into all these same category boxes. I DON’T WANT TO.”
…Has just made my day. 🙂
Wanton women do exist, I think, but they’re a very small minority.
Many times in life the most rare things are also the most precious. I’m convinced of this in regards to the small group of women who can have sex without emotional attachment. Whores and non-whores are part of this same group. Even if there was only 1 woman in all of history who had sex with no emotional attachment and helped out even a few sexually frustrated men that would be a wonderful thing. I’m sick and tired of the ###*** that small groups and/or individuals don’t really count, don’t really help, etc. The list of individuals who have changed the world for the better and worse is HUGE. That alone proves the value and power of the individual. Marla, I’m with you on the wanton women. I’ve been convinced for a long time they are real and gave examples of some of my favorite 1’s earlier in this thread.
Laura,
I’ve started to read your comments with particular attention. You are a truly independent thinker, and your comments about helping sexually frustrated men are nothing short of beautiful, they are so surprising…
Wantons most certainly exist and not in small number. But one finds them mainly in Japan. 😉
There are *more than a few* women there who have sex with men simply b/c thise men are “ugly” or sexually frustrated. It’s less a matter of pity fucking, as far as I can tell, than the desire to experience (as one exquisite told me) the “intensity of the deprived.” Excellent idea!
The impossibly bizarre thing about that culture right now is that many of the men do not seem to want to fuck their women; and that’s very, very strange to someone born elsewhere, because Japanese women are become almost impossibly beautiful.
One should look to their (utterly inspired) pornography for proof of this astonishing fact. There are beauties of every age routinely doing porm, and with obvious and enormous pleasure, and for many years.
But, yes, Japan is *different.*
Again, thanks for your distinctive and freethinking contribution.
Laura is pretty wonderful. I don’t know how I managed to win her heart, but I’m SO glad I did. I’ll always be grateful to her friend who first introduced us.
Yes, Japan has some of the most fascinating porn ever, animated, live-action, and manga (comic books). I haven’t seen many of the computer games, but from what I hear it’s truly amazing.
Dear Sailor B, YOU are wonderful! There’s a lot of reasons I wanted a relationship with you. Some are: when you gave me condolences after I told you about my family tragedy that impressed me a TON. The fact that you cared to make that effort and wouldn’t be like many and not say a word about it was/is a huge deal to me. I also saw you cared about changing the world for the better (you were already politically active) and wouldn’t give in to the cynicism, defeatism, etc. that’s very popular. I’ll always be grateful to our friend also even though her and I aren’t as close anymore.
Dear n/a, thank you so much for your kind words! It’s wonderful you’ve made the effort to understand why I’ve done things the way I have instead of making unfair ASS-umptions, trying to put me in a safe little category box (you’re really a whore, Laura, like EVERYONE ELSE IN THE WORLD, and you’ve got to accept it, etc…eyeroll), etc.
Well of course Sharon & co don’t consider themselves “whores”. I wouldn’t call them whores either. That would be a completely unfair insult… to whores. ^_-
Also I’m not entirely sure what the correct legal term is for “pathetic, lying, skank grifter”.
Unfortunately, must as it pains me to do so I must consider them whores; they sell sex, which is the defining characteristic. They’re dishonest, evil whores, but alas, whores nonetheless. 🙁
Hi Maggie,
I was going to say that Sharon wasn’t a whore because whores are much more honorable. But I guess dishonest, evil whores covers the bases.
How do women like Sharon sell sex? She didn’t have sex with the guy. What she sold was the false promise of sex, not the same thing as selling sex.
Sharon’s a false whore. She sells sex the same way the con man sells land. If I offer to sell you that lovely ocean-front property in Oklahoma, I’m presenting myself as a real estate agent, but am I?
I was using the phrase “selling sex” loosely; she sold her sexual services to the crooked P.I., just as she sold her sex appeal to casinos as a showgirl. I didn’t mean to imply that she actually had sex with anyone. As a whore myself, I can tell you that many times we’re hired for nothing but sex appeal, therefore I’m reluctant to draw a line at actual intercourse.
OK, I can see that. Of course, she was promising actual intercourse, so she’s still a con artist. She might also be a whore, or something akin, though.
Dear Hinoron, there are women in the world who provide sex like whores do without charging a cent. I did this for many years. I had what I call “sex only” friends. I still have the option to do this as my fiance and I have what we call an arrangement (him and I aren’t legally married). We’re actually from the same small group of women as whores. This is the small group of women in the world who can have sex without emotional attachment. I point this out every chance I get because to say you can ONLY get sex from whores that doesn’t have problems, complications, etc., isn’t true. They’re not the only option for sex without problems. I do admit that it takes more EFFORT to meet the women like me. But, to me, I’d personally rather go through a lot of effort to be with someone who’s not putting on some act with me. For those who want an act, that’s their business. It’s not for me and never will be. Yes, we’re rare, but whores are also. We’re both from the same small group of women.
The women in this article make me sick. They don’t help with the constant negativity towards the women like me who haven’t ever acted this way (the women who don’t charge a cent for sex on purpose, keep sex as free of literal cost as possible for the men and never bother, harrass, etc., the men). Unfortunately, these women are another example for the need of the women who aren’t like them to keep speaking out and literally show men that not all women are like this and never want to be.
Is the wanton myth more widespread in the English-speaking countries? Because in the classified ads of Spanish prostitutes they use words like; relaxing, pleasurable, discrete, educated, professional, experienced etc. I haven’t come across any independent that tries to portray herself as sex-crazed or anything similar…
As for today’s advice, it is so very true. Many men get taken for a ride, and end up in involuntary servitude, or in prison, or even dead. This is yet another benefit to prostitution from the client’s perspective; it helps him think more clearly and become less vunerable to opportunists of various sorts.
“Is the wanton myth more widespread in the English-speaking countries?”
It’s a part of everything that’s done in America.
:::Horny girls that are desperate to get screwed, call now!:::
1-800-OpenYourWallet
I don’t think it’s English-speaking countries, but rather countries with big hangups about sex. In countries where sex is viewed as natural people have fewer myths about it, and so one would expect advertising relying on such myths to be less effective and therefore less popular.
My Marine Biology prof taught me TANSTAAFL in 10th grade, and I’ve always been a big fan.
I’m not exactly sure in my series of experiences I realized the following, probably about halfway to where I am now, but I’ve said for a while, “You pay for it, one way or another.”
And it’s not always a material transaction – I’ve certainly paid for it emotionally in big ways by putting up with unhealthy relationships. I don’t do that anymore.
I think we need to coin a new acronym: TANSTAAFP
Women trade pussy for what they really/actually want; this is a normal fact of female life as Maggie has explained it.
Whether that ‘want’ is cash, a house, attention, not being alone, or all of the above.
It just gets confusing when she says they =like= it too. *headdesk*
But this statement:
“Women enjoy sex; we just aren’t so desperate for it that we’ll accept it no matter how it’s presented or pay any price for it the way men do.”
…adds some clarity. 🙂
I suspect Laura will disagree with you, but rather than make her repeat herself, just scroll up. 😛
Where do you live that Marine Biology is a high school course, 10th grade, no less? The sciences never got that specialized around here until university.
I say ###*** TANSTAAFL and will hate it forever. I’ll fight it until I die and have done that in various ways. It’s another rationalization for literally worshipping the $ and seeing those who don’t have a certain amount of $ as literal trash and also seeing materialism as another “god” to be worshipped and how it’s great to have a life goal of buying as much crap as possible and ###*** the poor. Also seeing EVERYTHING in life as a literal transaction. As far as free things go, there’s many in life (thank God!). I’ve yet to hear of anyone literally getting a bill for the AIR they breathe. There’s no literal charge for sunlight either. I could give more examples.
No, Laura, it isn’t that at all. It’s about common sense. People think that they can get something for nothing are the ones who continue to vote for politicians who promise them the moon, believe that they can make BIG MONEY working from home via internet ads, become addicted to gambling and are taken in by “get rich quick” scams.
Your problem is you’re equating “cost” to “money”, and they aren’t at all the same thing.
I concur.
Sex is universally about economics, but shouldn’t universally be interpreted in negative context.
It can also be a simple and highly enjoyable trade that involves nothing financial; orgasm for orgasm.
I once had a ‘fuck buddy’ whom I met at a party in Tahoe via an MMF threesome. It was one of my most memorable experiences. She and I continued to see eachother for about 6 months afterward. It was some of the best sex probably because the terms of the agreement were defined in advance and well understood; we enjoyed eachother’s company, brains and bodies, and traded orgasm for orgasm. No emotional BS, no manipulation, and when it ceased to work for one of us (as understood), that was it.
We’re both married and still good friends, more than a decade later.
Dear astrolube, I did what you’re saying you did (laid out everything up front, etc.) with my sex only friends and at the same time hated the whole “there’s no free lunch” thing. You can hate the free lunch thing and also practice saying everything up front at the same time.
truly pathetic story.women like her would deserve respect if they made an honest living in a brothel or escorting,calling them whores insults you and other honest whores.maggie,id like to ask sth off topic though,i just saw some stats on prostitution in the uk,although it says that trafficking numbers are exaggerated,it also says that 75%percent of brothel girls(immigrants,since the majority of the girls in brothels are immigrants there)are unhappy in their job,while the majority of escorts are happy(many of them british).do you think because of the differences in the quality of the work environment and the clientele and the amount of money or theres more to it?
In the United States,
So it doesn’t surprise me that English brothel workers report lower levels of satisfaction, especially considering their lower income, higher bills and immigration debts, and persecution by the police (in the UK escorts are much less persecuted).
I’d say that it’s because it take a bit more effort and determination to set yourself up as an independent escort than to work in a brothel.
Being an independent whore is running a business, with all that goes into that. Mostly, those who do that are motivated, and if they don’t like it they soon get out, as it just takes too much time and energy. Sure, the money is good and the freedom wonderful, but it is work. If you don’t love it, you’re less likely to succeed.
Working in a brothel situation is different. (Also depends on the level of the brothel.) It’s much easier work to get, and often the motivation is solely “need money quick”. Most of the women there aren’t suited to what they do, and they don’t like it.
Why is it the world finds it so difficult to understand that like most lines of work, sex work is best suited to a certain personality type?
“Why is it the world finds it so difficult to understand that like most lines of work, sex work is best suited to a certain personality type?”
Speaking for myself, it’s because I never heard of/understood that until I met Maggie.
1984 … Coming out of a strip bar in Guam (The Dallas Club) … I’m waiting on the ship’s van, which was making runs between the submarine and the Dallas Club – and one other strip club, because those were the only two places on the island that the crew was hanging out, besides the “Ichiban” massage parlor – where some Sonar Technicians had put down roots.
A genuinely HOT brunette (and I love brunettes), drives up in a black Toyota. She rolls down the passenger window and I can see she’s wearing some of those “painted on” vinyl pants that were so popular back then. She says something to me – I thought she said “I need a cigarette”. I said … “Wow, I’m really sorry – because I don’t smoke”. Then she placed her hand in a location that I won’t mention … and said … “No, I need some service!”.
LOL … now yeah – there is a little male voice in there that says … “Dude, this could totally be legit”. But it’s kind of overridden by a louder voice that says – “Dude, look at this – this NEVER happens!”
I figured it was a robbery … and she had an accomplice somewhere … or this was some insane woman with a venereal disease from hell that she caught from some Sailor – and was hell bent on giving it to the whole fleet.
Or, she’s just a hooker with a unique “approach”.
I told her … “I’m really sorry, because I have some guys coming to pick me up right now because they called me back to the ship – and they’ll get worried if I’m not here when they arrive.”
She says … “It’s okay – we can do it right over there in the parking lot.”
I laughed and said … “No I don’t think so.”
A similar incident happened a few months later when we were back in Hawaii. I was riding my Harley down the strip in Waikiki – and this HOT girl comes up and jumps on the back and says … “DRIVE!”. The same voice told me to tell her get off – but I ignored it. So I took off and ran that redlight – and I suddenly had car speeding down the road chasing me. Girl yells “GO FASTER, He’s got a GUN!” … oh shit … so I hit the throttle and drive like a bat out of hell until I lose the guy. Soon as we were safe … Girl says “Okay you can let me off now.”
LOL
After all my years of work involving male sexuality, I admit, I still don’t have a total understanding of it. I might know more than most women, but down deep there’s still that mystery of otherness I just can’t bridge.
I suspect the thinking in the sexes goes most like this:
Men: “Can I have sex with her?”
Women: “Do I want sex with him?”
I have to say this though, and please, I don’t mean to offend the gentlemen here:
Over the years, I’ve actually felt more sorry for men than anything else, when it comes to sex.
“Over the years, I’ve actually felt more sorry for men than anything else, when it comes to sex.”
In what sense, in that our need/obsession/desire for it is so strong that we will pay almost any price for it, and tend to ruin our lives over it?
Yes, it would definitely be easier if we had the built-in advantages that women do, but with less testosterone, other things would be different as well, not just the sex drive.
I feel sorry for men for several reasons:
1. Yeah, there’s all that desperate search and scramble for sex, and then, when most of you finally get it, it’s over so quickly. The lesbian partners I’ve had could go for hours. I’ve easily outlasted whole line-ups of men.
2. Mostly, you’ve one erogenous zone.
3. What our society does to you- You’re so expected to hide your emotions that you don’t even know how to deal with you own pain.
4. You just don’t seem as happy, and content. Sure, I know, women get depressed and moody, but men seem to be scowling and angry so much of the time.
5. All the competition, all the time. All the violence.
I agree with Maggie, there will never be a large (or even small) version of the commercial sex market that exists for men for women. It’s just totally different psychology.
1.) But it feels so good. We don’t mind. A good rest break and we recharge. And we have an orgasm every time.
2) True…but if you knew its intensity you wouldn’t mind either. I don’t like the ‘diffused’ nature of female sexuality…too damn hard to hit a home run.
3. I can’t argue with this one.
4. See Number three. Plus remember, no pussy from women if you *act* like a pussy. So what choice do we have?
5. Like it’s any better for women and being pretty and getting attention.
Why did you feel sorry for men?
Honestly – I think about sex all the time and, sometimes it’s frustrating but I’d never trade places with a woman. Once, when I was in the war zone, I got stressed out and started feeling imaginary “pains” all over my body. Military doc’s said I had “anxiety” and gave me some Xanax. I took that stuff for maybe two weeks and I suddenly realized my whole method of thinking had changed. I didn’t think about sex anymore – it just didn’t cross my mind every second like it usually did. I started getting more “cerebral” and less “aggressive”.
What got me – is I was at an ops planning meeting with some Recon Marines and we were trying to figure out an insertion method to get them into a potentially hot landing zone. The methods I was proposing were way too passive and the Gunny for the RECON guys looked at me and said … “What’s going on with you? Let’s just do this like we always do and go in with all birds at once, as quick as possible – with guns blazing – no need to overthink”
He was right.
Right after that meeting I went to my bunk and grabbed my Xanax – and threw that shit in the toilet. Fortunately – a few week later my libido returned and so did my aggression.
In my opinion – you can’t separate our sex drive from who we are.
You didn’t need a freaking tranquilizer, you needed sex. Prior to the late 19th century, everyone understood this about men; the Japanese, Mediterranean peoples and Latinos still understand it. It’s only the doomed races who think that men should act like women who don’t.
Interesting that you say that because I was in my 40’s when this happened and, I’m sorry – but certain things don’t just “stand up” when the wind blows like when you’re 17. When you’re 17 it happens at random times every day – all day long.
But during this time – before they gave me the Xanax – a certain party of me was behaving like it was 17 again – and it was the strangest thing. I would wake me up in the middle night and I’d have to find creative ways to “hide” it all through the day. I told the doc about this – and he just threw the Xanax at me. Of course – that cured that one little symptom until I threw that drug out.
My wife cured me when I got home about three months later. 😉
One thing I do somewhat envy men is the whole wonderful market of prostitution. That’s just not there for women.
I mean, now days, you men can sit in the comfort of your home, look at different women, see what they offer, read reviews, and once you decide and book the appointment know you’re likely to have a good time and get what you want.
Sure, you pay. Now if I wanted a bit of casual sex, I’d have to get myself all fixed up, go out to bars, see what’s on offer (usually not much very fit), chat him up, fend off the others, try not to appear too easy, play the game, only in the end to find out he’s a dud.
It’s so silly how society views sex.
“One thing I do somewhat envy men is the whole wonderful market of prostitution. That’s just not there for women.”
…Only if you’re the kind of man that doesn’t mind prostitutes.
“Now if I wanted a bit of casual sex, I’d have to get myself all fixed up, go out to bars, see what’s on offer (usually not much very fit), chat him up, fend off the others, try not to appear too easy, play the game, only in the end to find out he’s a dud.”
If a guy doesn’t want to go to prostitute, then he most *definitely* has to dress well, or he will be shut down almost immediately, he has to go out to bars, see what’s on offer AND DEAL WITH PASSING THE TESTS OF ALL HER FRIENDS, because god knows pretty girls are never alone, you have to chat her up and you better not say the wrong thing, or you can just see the interest drain from her face, try not to appear to eager or you’ll come off as desperate/uncool, not “edgy” enough, not manly enough, and try to figure out from all the myriad combinations of what women want to hear, what *this particular woman* wants to hear, play the game, buy her a drink, only in the end to discover, she can just say ‘thank you’ and walk away, as she was never intending to give you any pussy anyway.
Or, you can marry her, and she can withhold the pussy at any time & then say ‘thank you’ and walk away with your house and your children.
Man, women sure do have it rough.
[That was sarcasm.]
Hello Comixchik,
Well, it will exist if enough women want it to exist. Maggie has pointed out why that is highly unlikely to ever happen.
Many males would have no hesitation whatsoever to have paid sex with much older females such as Hillary Clinton, Angela Merkel etc. But without demand, there can be no market.
Without going into details … I used to work in direct proximity with Hillary … and I’ll tell you the amount of monetary compensation required by this boy would be STEEP.
That was about 17 years ago though – and her demeanor seems to be much more relaxed these days – which makes her a bit more attractive today than she was back then.
Maggie,
Sharon isn’t a whore because she isn’t selling sex for money. She may tell herself that she is, but if she does she is lying to herself. She sells sex in exchange for the knowledge that she has made somebody miserable. She is a psychic vampire, living off of the pain of other people, and somebody should pound a steak through he heart, cut her head off, burn her in two different fires, and bury the ashes at a cross roads.
I’m more interested in this 19th Century law that makes it a felony to ‘conspire to subject another person to arrest’. This sounds like it could be a great idea. Can we arrest cops and DAs under this law? I want more details about this.
I was thinking the same thing, but then I realized that perjury is also a felony, yet that never stops them from doing it constantly and they’re absolutely never prosecuted for it even when it can be proven.
Maggie, let me see if I correctly understand the “myth of the wanton”. What you’re saying is not that women don’t want sex or that women with very strong sexual desires don’t exist. The myth is specifically of a woman who is indiscriminate, who is so burning with unfocused lust that she will sleep with any guy who comes along just to satisfy her carnal needs. And the related myth that sex workers are necessarily manifestations of this creature.
An illustration of the idea might be a couple I knew a long time ago. The woman had a very high sex drive, wanting it every day at least. But she didn’t just go to bars and sleep with any man that was handy. Or sleep with any random guys she knew. She wasn’t interested in me, for example. She wanted it from her boyfriend (and from the occasional and approved guy on the side, an indiscretion related to which was how I stumbled into finding out about it.)
The amusing thing about the myth is that most men, if they encounter a “wanton” situation, will run. A friend swears up and down he had someone try to entice him when he delivered a pizza — the staple of dumb porn. He left as fast as he could. No idea if it’s true or not, but I would do the same thing. Who knows how many pieces you’ll end up in if you fall for that?
The Myth of the Wanton is that women as a group have just as high or higher sex drive as men, and want sex in the same indiscriminate fashion; those who believe in it tend to interpret any manifestation of female sexuality (such as the high number of sex partners of prostitutes) as evidence of this imaginary male-like lust. The most virulent form (still common in Islam) is that women’s lust is what pushes men to be promiscuous,and that if women weren’t such lascivious witches men would just be self-controlled, pious monks.
Maggie, now that you have clarified exactly what you mean by “The Myth of the Wanton”, I agree that it’s a myth that women *as a group* have just as high or higher sex drive as men, but I do think there is a small percentage of women whose sex drive is ALMOST as high as the average man. Those women are the ones I referred to as wantons.
“but I do think there is a small percentage of women whose sex drive is ALMOST as high as the average man. Those women are the ones I referred to as wantons.”
1) Know where they hang out? 🙂
2) Being women, they probably still aren’t totally indiscriminate as a man would be. Even if they want dick often, they still probably care more about who it’s from.
They can afford to.
I think the confusion about wanton sex workers springs from this- If you’re going to be a sex worker, then you sort of need to have not necessarily a higher drive for sex, but a good tolerance for it and energy level. You have to be able and willing to do it way more than the average, and with a lot larger number of partners. Generally, you can’t be as picky. You usually have to have a bit wider boundaries of what you’ll do. People then tend to think of a sexworker “Well, she does this so that must be who she is.”
What women like this don’t ever seem to “get” is that their activities end up peeing in the pool for other women, just as abusers and batterers do for men-in-general. If I’d been the victim of this sort of scam, I’d be much more suspicious of women and unwilling to take anything they said at face value.
Ms. McNeill, I have been reading your blog for nearly a year and have yet to comment or compliment your work. I can only say thank you for bringing exceptional intelligence to the topics you cover, each article is better than the previous.
“However…” just seemed like it should be there. 🙂
When I read your description of a Wanton Woman (higher sex drive than a man, sex in an indiscriminate manner, etc.) it was as though you were describing me, not exactly but very close. Though, I am an exception in many areas, especially this one, I cannot possibly agree more with what you have written. Women do not act in that manner, not even hypersexual ones such as myself.
But, what I really don’t get is how a man would fall for this charade. My experience with men is… extensive and almost every time I’ve approached a man he has asked if I was truly serious (the older the man the more incredulous he has been). The only thing that makes sense to me is desperation on their part. So, is that right or wrong? Or is it something else? If you’ve already covered this in the thread I apologise.
P.S. Please forgive my haphazard writing. I tried being concise but the length of the post was becoming alarming.
Thank you so much, Jen! I think the men who fall for such things are simply naive, desperate, very needy or badly misinformed by magazine articles. 🙁
Jen-
Speaking as a man, I must say that you are doing what many women do, projecting. Meaning, that because something is so painfully obvious to *you,* you think it ought to be just that obvious to anyone else; and it =is= obvious *to other women.*
You of course don’t know what it’s like to live in a body that has ten times the amount of testosterone than the one you live in now, you don’t know what it’s like to have seed that you constantly want/need to spread, you don’t know what it’s like to be so heavily tied into your visual perception of romantic partners that you can’t get past it, you don’t know what it’s like to have all of your sexual energy constantly being focused on one specific area of your body, your genitals, and you don’t have a body full of testosterone that’s constantly clouding your judgment and blinding you to the consequences of your choices and overriding so much of what both your brain and your heart are telling you.
Men fall for this because we choose to; but we choose to because we *want* to. We *want* to believe that women can get randy and out of control the same way that we do, because IT’S THE BIGGEST TURN ON FOR A MAN THAT THERE IS. ….That is very obvious, to *men.* That is why so much porn has the women behaving like they *actually enjoy* being cumrags. It’s because men deeply want that to be true, even though it’s obvious to women that it is not.
In addendum:
Maggie is also correct about some men being naive and desperate; but you’d have to understand what I said in my first answer to understand why.
Men need pussy in a way that women don’t understand. The closest gender equivalent for women is attention and/or desirability. I’ve seen many women that will do ANYTHING for some attention, and to be wanted…well, that’s the same way it is for men and hot pussy.
So when you’re dealing with men that will NEVER get a shot at the kind of hot pussy that ALL STRAIGHT MEN DESIRE, they are unfortunately much more susceptible to this kind of scam…but as you pointed out, that is less true the older they are. After a while you do indeed figure out what’s up with women when it comes to sex.
thehumanscorch, thanks for the reply. I do agree with you about projecting my reasoning onto this situation but not exactly how you describe. I’ve never been at ease with my own emotions and feelings let alone someone else’s. So for me trying to understand the reasons/emotions for their actions is at best a guessing game and these explanation really help me to understand.
As to not knowing how sexual desire is in men, you’ll get no argument from me. I have no clue what that is like. But, I would have to disagree with you about how I experience sexual desire. I speak only to my experience of sexual desire and I am very much the exception to the rule. I know exactly what is like to experience everything you listed above (with the obvious exception of the spreading the seed part). I understand you completely when you speak of sex as a need. For me sex is as necessary as food and sleep, except with much greater frequency.
This thread has given me much to think about.
Jen-
You probably *are* the exception then, rather than the rule, if the desire is that strong in you.
If I may ask, how have you dealt with that? Do you have lots of sex with one partner, or do you require more variety, as men tend to do?
Short answer to your question is both of those options. However, I am more inclined to variety over exclusivity. So, I develop FWB relationships in preference to traditional relationships (in which I would be more likely to cheat on the person). Hope that makes sense.
That does make sense, and you truly are the exception. 🙂
Once I’d done enough recovery work, I decided I wanted a relationship plus sex only friends. Actually, I had wanted sex only friends for years before I got counseling. The desire was just repressed. Sailor Barsoom and I started out as friends with benefits. I started getting sex only friends after Sailor and I were involved for a while. Before I did anything, he and I talked out all the rules for our arrangement, etc. I haven’t seen anyone but him for a while now (for various reasons), but the option to do that will always be there and I’m open to seeing people again for a while now and have pursued that a little.
One thing to remember is that Laura and I lived 250 miles away from each other for years. Neither of us wealthy, we couldn’t just go see each other whenever we wanted, or whenever we felt horny. So an open arrangement just made sense.
Now we live 3 miles apart, and we still can do the open relationship thing, but we don’t so much any more. Laura’s still free to, though, and so am I. As Laura has said, she’s starting to pursue it a little again.
Laura, a quick question if i may. Am I correct in assuming that you make a distinction between ‘friends with benefits’ and ‘sex only friends’? Or do you use the terms interchangeably?
Dear Jen, I use the terms pretty much interchangeably. They mean MOSTLY the same to me. A question for you: what do you think of prostitution? Is it something you’d do, have done, etc.? There were SOME differences with Sailor Barsoom. I didn’t meet him through personal ads. I met him through a mutual friend and it was wonderful because when she met Sailor she saw him as a perfect match for me and then made the efforts for him and I to meet. Sailor and I didn’t have sex for several months after we met. This was mainly because of the distance we lived apart plus limited $. With my sex only friends, I had what I called my “guarantee” which was I’d have sex after the 1st date or 1st meeting in person. I also socialized very little with them and that was on purpose. I rarely had overnight visits and the only times I did was if they drove a long distance, etc. It was mainly they came to my place, we’d have sex and then they’d leave. I’d do the same at their places unless I drove a long distance, etc. I knew right away I wanted a relationship with Sailor, but I didn’t want to be clingy, pressure him, etc., like so many women I’d seen do in life. He also wanted to keep things casual. But, over time our feelings grew. I had some fears before I asked him if he wanted to be able to see others for sex only. But, I forced myself through the fears because I’d already learned in counseling that you have to force yourself through fears to accomplish anything in life and get happiness, peace, etc. It was wonderful to learn he wanted the same thing!
Thank you for your answer Laura. I use the terms FB and FWB in very exclusive ways. So, when others use them interchangeably it can be confusing for me. A fuck buddy to me is someone where it is only sex then one or the other leaves. A friend with benefits is exactly that a friend that I have sex with. I might make more sense to explain it this way, the friendship of the person is more important to me than the sexual aspect of our interactions. And no I don’t have sex with all my friends.
As for your questions about prostitution.
Simply put, I think it is needed (for both men and women). There, of course being different reasons for different genders. In my opinion some of those reasons are: whores can be the only option for a man to get sex or the type of sex he wants/needs, to satisfy a craving for variety, etc. The reasons why a woman would need prostitution are limited (again, just my opinion) to having someone available (who’s intentions are know) to provide sex for their partner when they are unwilling or unable or they want to experiment with someone safe.
Also, having hired two whores I can hardly speak ill of a profession that has catered to me.
As to whether I’ve been/ would be a whore? I’ve never been nor do I plan to be a whore. Of course, that could change. I say that not because I think I am too good to be one. Rather, I think I’d make a bad whore. Sex work is about providing sex for the client’s pleasure not one’s own. That would be extremely difficult if not impossible for me to do.
Well, I think I’ve gone on long enough. 🙂
Sharon and other women like her are NOT whores because they DO NOT sell sex. There was no sex! Selling the false promise of sex does not constitute selling sex.
Maggie, you have stated that your test of whether a job is sex work is whether you can take the sex out of the job without fundamentally altering the job. If Sharon had lured the man to drive drunk by promising him, not sex. but stolen goods at another location, it would have had the same effect, setting him up for a drunk driving conviction.
I think sometimes you label women as whores who really aren’t, like I’ve seen you say that singers make a living with the same body parts as prostitutes, which isn’t really true, because singers make a living without actually displaying their genitalia.
EDIT: My hypothetical parallel, “If Sharon had lured the man to drive drunk by promising him, not sex. but stolen goods at another location,” is not the best parallel because it would involve the man knowingly doing something illegal. So I amend it: If Sharon had lured the man to drive drunk by promising him, not sex, but a party or free stuff or something else desirable at another location…” My point stands that people can pull cons without involving sex so it’s not sex work. Sharon is not a whore; she’s a con artist.
Two notes:
1) The woman who fucks men to fuck them over – is the opposite of a prostitute. She’s like Schofield said: A vampire, nothing more, nothing less. She needs to be put down. She’s not providing a service. She’s entrapping them. She’s a Siren, luring hapless men to their doom.
2) As for wanton sex:
I’ve been offered free sex by “wanton”, relatively randy women exactly three times in my entire life. The first was a drunk woman in college, who would have raped me had she had the ability or the sobriety to do so; she was drunk for the express purpose of lowering her inhibitions to sleep with me, her friend’s BF. It was transparent and I totally avoided anything to do with her. A few men I know have had such experiences, often from women who used alcohol, excuses or other contrivances to grab much better-looking men (especially when the woman was much less attractive) – and in every instance the woman was being crassly manipulative and alternately using “little girl guile” or “weak and helpless tart” or “raunchy bad girl” to tempt the man. In all cases it was woefully bad news for the guy.
The other two times for me were similar: drunk older woman in a bar, who attempted to cajole me and shame me in front of her friends for not stepping out with her; my reaction was disgust, not any kind of interest. The third was an ex-lover who, once I was with someone else, felt an overpowering need to spend a night with me – obviously just angst, jealousy or damaged ego needing a band-aid, I’ve felt the same thing on many occasions myself – and who more or less guilted me into sex. She kept trying to do this but other attempts failed. I was emotionally cajoled and more or less beaten down by it.
What shook me was the utterly manipulative nature of the experience. It was relentless.
Every other woman I was with took consenting exchanges of some sort. With some, it was clear; with others, it was the exploration of some kind of relationship (which, no matter what people say, was on some level an exchange).
I asked my ex GF about this today. I actually interviewed her a couple of weeks ago, and I called her today to ask a few more questions, and roughly translated the basic point of this essay for her.
I’m using her as a resource for backgound information for a possible doc I’ll write on the sex trade in Korea and attitudes.
Incidentally, hah, I’m *paying* her for her information. Not a lot of money, more of a token, but given that this might be a commercial thing, or at least a production, I can’t just tap her for free. And what hit me was that she instantly agreed to take money for it: even though it’s not much more than a token. I wasn’t going to offer her money but when I did, I expected her to refuse – but she didn’t. I wonder what that means? She has a clear sense of duty and exchanges.
I can’t use her experience on film, but her experience makes for great background info. That I dated her at one time makes it easier to talk. She’s extremely candid with me, which is more than I can say about any GF I’ve ever had. That’s one thing about whores: Candor. Of course, I only know one (that I’m aware of).
Specifically, I asked her about what was it that we exchanged. I was curious, because at the time I remember feeling as if she often had sex with me out of obligation or because she felt she was supposed to, even though we were just watching movies or hanging out or spending an evening together. I wondered how she viewed sex and customers. I asked her about sex and our relationship; I asked her about relationships outside of sex, and what she was seeking from being with men. I always felt she had sex as a matter of course with all men she was with, making it not special with any one man. She said sex was not one thing but a means to an end, so stop being so limited.
It says a lot about volition and sex. You might want to take note of this kind of thing for prohibitionists. This comes from the mouth of a whore.
Context and background: She worked from about 20-25; I dated her when she was 24 for 8 months or so; that was a number of years ago. She’s getting married to a man she met as a customer/business client (ie, she slept with him for money while working for him in business in some way, I have no idea what, probably some business function). He’s marrying her, he said to me last spring, because, and I wholly agree with him on this, she was the first honest woman he’d ever met. The same was true for me.
She even told me what she did for work, coyly, the first night I flirted with her, and never once apologized for it; never chastised me for treating her with kid gloves for half a year as a result; and often wondered if she could get me to be a customer (ie, make me pay her for sex) as a challenge – I recall her asking me twice to try it to see it’s not disgusting to have a woman be with you, it’s simpler, long before we ended up in bed. Paying for sex for her was pretty natural like breathing air, for her, and the idea that I would be disgusted seemed to be somewhat unusual for her: Like a child who refuses to eat, say, beef, for no clear reason. But in the end, we “dated” – she actually considered me her boyfriend. I regret not having given her the same consideration in fact, though in intention the lines were deeply blurred at the time, moreso as time went on.
He’s very blue-collar but did well in construction: He wants a wife who can do things, and be useful, not a pretty bimbo; an asset, not a liability. She’s already more or less managing a Korean export enterprise that he told me is targeted to double his business. I have no idea how well it’s doing now, but I’m sure she’s more than competent. She knows how to control money.
They’re moving to Australia. This is not a stupid woman nor a victim. Some of the whores she knew were; most were not, she told me once. There are few drugs in Korea, but a lot more whores, from what I can tell, than in the states.
Things I learned from this:
– Whores can have actual, bona-fide boyfriends that they treat as boyfriends and not customers. Though I have questions about the sex. She was awfully obliging to me, perhaps out of a sense of duty? She never once, even once, denied me sex to manipulate me. In fact, she offered me sex without my seeking it much of the time. Damn it but most “proper” girlfriends, let alone wives, aren’t like this.
– Whores can have ambitions. Often impressive ambitions.
– Whores can be extremely intelligent.
– Whores can occupy a vast range of economic niches.
– Whores use more than their pussy to make money. A pussy is required; it is not, however, sufficient, depending on the economic category.
– Whores often take some pride in their work. This was something that I found noteworthy.
So on to what she’s said to me.
She said: Not everything is an exchange for money, but she said the following, roughly translated from Korean. I may have missed the point, but the sense is more or less here. You’ll have to excuse me for not being as succinct as she was.
– All women have sex for something.
– Sometimes it’s for a friendly face and the comfort of familiar arms and a man who won’t judge you or demand you live up to some standard that has nothing to do with you. I think by this she meant me. She’s stroked so many egos in her time, far more than men’s organs, I’m sure this kind of thing is old hat. I have no idea how true this is. It might just be to make an old BF comfortable. She was always good at that.
– Sometimes it’s out of duty to a man who does things for you. If he drives you everywhere, pays for you, takes care of you and honors you in other ways, the least you can do is help him relax and share what nature gave you to share. It’s also the easiest way, given this is what most men want most. It’s not like it’s painful.
– Sometimes it’s about breaking down barriers, and there’s nothing so absurd as sex. You can laugh when you’re fucking.
– She says it’s a good way to control men: If you have sex, and make them happy, often very happy, you acquire lots of control over them. Men are simple creatures (“little dogs”).
– It helps to put wallpaper over holes in the relationship: You can paper over a hole long enough for it to heal. I totally relate to this: She used this on me often.
I recall her curing some of our arguments using sex. It was mostly successful. Instead of going at me, she’d basically have sex and then politely ask me to consider her side. We usually compromised. And we had some massive arguments, once avoiding talking for over three weeks. When we saw each other, we had sex on her more-or-less initiative before we spoke much and after sex we spoke and I apologized. More sex after apologies and relationship continued.
How are humans not clever chimpanzees, again?
– Sometimes it’s about having a guy fuck you. It’s fun.
– Here’s something that will shock feminists: It’s often wonderful to submit to the raw, animal power of male lust and sexual desire. In Korean, she used a word meaning “overwhelmed by natural force”. During sex, I do remember her as much as any woman enjoying being overpowered.
All the rape hysteria has to take this into account: My ex is not the only woman who has said on many occasions that she loves being utterly submerged under the raw, forceful power of the man they’re with – voluntary submission or not. Feminism has to contend with this instinct in a lot of women – *and* men.
– You see people at their most vulnerable, when they’re weakest. It’s honest.
Paid Sex
She said, for paying customers and “patrons” (Maggie: is there a difference in the States? The concepts in Korean are very different).
– Sometimes it’s about money alone. It’s always about money, but sometimes it’s just money. This is when it’s most like work, and she treated it as such – no more, no less.
– Sometimes it’s about money and respect. She would be different for a man she respected, and who respected her. You can let a man fuck you , and you can be with a man (for a time). They’re different. When we were together, I would often ask what it was like with other men – I was never comfortable with it and was often somewhat jealous, despite myself and my deliberately casual attitude with her. She used to tell me that it was work, but she often hinted that there were men she liked and she genuinely enjoyed pleasing them – and being pleased. The exchange was more than monetary. Inside, that once drove me nuts; but had I been more reflective, I would have known that this applies not just to sex but every interaction. The act of fucking alone doesn’t mean much.
– Regulars can become some kind of familiar customer, like seeing an old friend or associate. They treated you well, you can relate, it’s less like work.
She said she’s had interesting times with many men: the most amusing was a larger than life foreigner (prostitutes here often specialize: Korean only customers, foreign-only customers; she sometimes crossed lines, though never with Japanese men). She said only that he was older, very jolly, and liked to make fun of himself. Unattractive, he was also very amusing and fun to be around, so sex wasn’t uncomfortable at all, and he didn’t take it seriously. She admitted that she saw him after she stopped working for the agency she worked for, when she was leaving the business, and he was one of the last customers she had. It was because he was funny and decent and always had something interesting to give her; in one case, a penguin egg and a bottle of North Korean soju. In other words, for him, she was nothing like just an object for sexual amusement. She was something else. I’m guessing he was likely much older and was well-traveled with lots of stories and had built some sort of regularized relationship with her. Or not. I have no idea.
– Sometimes it’s about stress relief – and she shocked me by saying this not in reference *to the man*, but to *herself*. I had to ask this a couple of times to make sure I got it right. As in stress relieving for her. She can let go during sex, and she’s good at it – it’s distracting and can be fun, even with someone you have no connection to. She can enjoy it and the transactional nature makes it very simple.
She said many men are very good in bed and would often take as much time to make sure she enjoyed herself as they did enjoying themselves, so it wasn’t so bad. What annoyed her was when she wanted to get it over with as soon as possible and the man insisted on being gentlemanly. Usually she would be polite, but would often have to find ways to get him off so she could finish the evening.
– Sometimes it’s about a *lot* of money. Then, she said, you feel somehow responsible – special. As if you’re doing not just a sexual job; you’re hired for your charm, personality, your respectful attention as well as your ass and youth.
She said this actually made her feel valuable. She found this the most rewarding kind of client to have. Not just for the money: because she was treated as a kind-of temporary companion in some real sense, appreciated for more than her activity, but for her presence.
She felt that men genuinely valued her presence and her attention. Some didn’t. Some did. Same as any customer in any profession.
– Sometimes it’s about helping people. She said a lot of her customers when she worked at the norebang/suljib/club etc. for about 8 months, the time when she saw the most people, were:
– Lonely men. They waned attention and physical affection. Some didn’t, or wouldn’t, have sex, or it was perfunctory and was done just to do it; they wanted her attention more.
– Physically frustrated men. They were easy, easily pleased, and extremely relieved. She felt like a physical therapist.
– She saw a few young men who had sex for the first time. She usually gave them a lot more time than usual and was very patient. Some of these guys pretended it wasn’t their first time, and seemed really insecure; she sometimes tried to make sure they were very comfortable and made them feel better about sex. See note below for a specific case.
– She likes sex. Even with men she’s not really into, there’s rarely very bad sex. At wost, it’s work. At best, it’s enjoyable. Normally, it can be a bit of both. Most of the time she felt like a performer.
I wonder if this is why actors and actresses were very often prostitutes?
NOTE
The one case she held up as an example of sex as a public service was this one. She actually called it a familial service, because the man was friend-ish related to her.
A friend had a brother who was ungainly and very socially awkward, but also quite decent and extremely naive. He had a “GF” who literally took him for huge sums of money in high school and was terrible to him; he had never had sex. He was very awkward. When she was 25 and he was just 21, after hearing this and meeting the guy, and seeing him literally melt into a puppy dog around her, all chivalrous and wistful, her friend joked that she should find some girl for him to bed so he could get over it and have normal relationships. So without telling her friend, my ex had sex with him as an act of what she called “social decency”. She felt genuinely bad for him.
She befriended him, approached him, and spent three nights with him over the course of a month. She never told her friend, and swore her little client to secrecy: she couldn’t ask him for money lest her friend find out what she did for a living, and instead asked him to help her with some other problem (“assistance”, which can mean anything, but not money, probably a computer or technology thing, she’s useless at that). Anyway, for a month he helped her, and she helped him get over his extreme social awkwardness. Whatever he did was pretty important for her, but she described hat she did as careful social therapy. She also said she left a surprise for his next girlfriend.
He, of course, got attached; happily, she fell back on traditional Korean culture and said that their age difference made any relationship impossible, her being older, so they had to call it. She says he’s now in an actual relationship with a woman, much to his sister’s shock.
I don’t know how responsible *SHE* was for this state, but she seems to feel she was a major influence.
So aside from being raped in a situation where she thought she was going to die, once, she’s had a pretty wide range of experiences, drunk a lot of alcohol and done a confusing array of things, almost all of which defy the prohibitionist stance and the paternalistic attitudes of judgmental busybodies.
Thank you for all of that, it was really something.
Still overwhelming, I’m trying to process all of that, but it added a lot of knowledge to my relationship arsenal, so thank you again, Gorbachev. 🙂
Whores don’t have a monolopy on great things like candor. Non-whore have these traits also. Non-whore women don’t have a monopoly on them either. How about giving credit where it’s due to ALL groups? That’s 1 of the reasons I came here because it’s very needed and, unfortunately, this isn’t the only place it’s needed.
Non-whoreS-sorry, it’s early! Also am glad that I can use a plural on that term! Non-whores can help out sexually frustrated men as much as whores (and they do). Because some don’t want any part of charging literal $ (like me and others) and/or don’t want to do other things the same way doesn’t take away the value of what they do. All the hair-splitting, ASS-umptions, putting people in category boxes (eyeroll), etc., doesn’t change how both groups of women help.
The main dividing line that matters is between genuine people and liars.
Prostitutes and honest amateurs are both good, since everything is on the table and all sides know what is going on…
But those that seek to get what they want by way of deception – the “players” and the “gold-diggers” – shame on them, for they poison everything.
Amen.
Dear gumdeo, THANK YOU! These women in this article disgust me. ###*** THESE BITCHES! Yes, these BITCHES poison too much. But, we can also control our reactions. If we give up for good on relationships, sex only friends, all women or all men, etc., etc., then we’re self-destructing. We’re taking the easy way out and that has the least rewards. This is something that abused people really have to be careful to avoid (I know this from my own experience as an abused person). We can close our hearts, revel in hate and bitterness, etc. instead of taking chances again. This doesn’t mean that when we’ve been abused, hurt, lied to, etc., that it’s “nothing” or “you’re making it worse than it is”, etc. But, we can control many of our reactions after hurts, traumas, etc. Thanks for listening and thank you again for what you said.
^^This 😎
Dating a whore did a lot to educate me.
G,
It’s good to see you’re still writing at extravagant length — somewhere. 😉
Indeed good and sensible but exceptions possiblt humanbeings aren’t rational they are sentimental—