O what a tangled web we weave
When first we practice to deceive! – Sir Walter Scott
As many of you already know, the prohibitionist mouthpiece who calls herself “Stella Marr” has been outed. Last Tuesday evening I was emailed links to a posting she made which carelessly linked her legal name with “Stella Marr” and several other online personas; I quickly made a screen capture of the page, knowing full well that it wouldn’t be long before it was deleted (and it was, only a few hours later, though I also have a link to a cached copy). Later that evening I was contacted by Norma Jean Almodovar, who had even more information than I had been given; due to the nature of some of it, we suspect the anonymous leaker (whose identity we do not know) is a real-life acquaintance who was fed up with Stella’s lies and wanted sex worker rights activists to know the truth.
And what a truth it is; it turns out that Amy (her real first name) is the daughter of a wealthy family who attended Barnard from autumn 1981 until spring 1985, then skipped a year and returned for the 1986-1987 school year; since she did not graduate until spring of 1994 I surmise that she was actually done by 1987 but for some unfinished requirement (a senior thesis perhaps?) that she finally completed in ’94. I further assume that whatever dates she gives (and whatever the truth of the conditions therein), her “ten years in prostitution” ran from early 1985 to late 1993. I was not able to confirm her statement that she attended Julliard, and I assume her claims about Columbia extend from the fact that Barnard is an autonomous part of it despite their well-known rivalry.
Amy’s Google profile describes her as “a writer living in Houston, TX with her beloved husband and labrador [sic] retriever. She is writing a memoir about her experiences as a prostitute in New York City.” Interestingly, the “pimps and hos” nonsense she touts as “Stella” is in sharp contrast to her other claim that she transitioned out of hooking via being “kept” by a wealthy professor for two years; apparently, her “violent and controlling” pimp whom she supposedly saw murder women in front of her just meekly let her go without even demanding a cut. But considering the poor job she did of covering her tracks (I even have records of real estate transactions she conducted), and the fact that she can’t make up her mind whether her benefactor taught at Oxford or Cambridge, I suppose we shouldn’t be surprised that she left such a gaping logic hole in her invented life story.
How much of that story is real? How much embellished? How much distorted, wildly exaggerated and “reframed”? How much made up out of whole cloth? We simply don’t know and have no way of telling at this time, and I have to wonder if Amy herself even knows any more; given that prostitution is a recurring theme in her writing it seems likely that (as one of my sources stated) she started hooking after her family cut her off. It may be that she then got in over her head, though she wasn’t nearly as traumatized as she pretends; after all, some of the things we found in other names seem to present whoring in a far less negative light. She even owns a WordPress blog called “A Prostitute Reviews Movies”, which she seems to use for writing her screeds before posting them publicly to her own blog; this seems like a rather odd title for someone who also brands herself a “survivor” and blathers about “trigger warnings” and other concepts favored by the tissue-paper feelings crowd. The tipster claimed that her “beloved” husband, a US government bureaucrat, considers her insane and that she started the “Stella Marr” character to get back at him; even if this isn’t true she obviously thrives on attention and craves success as a writer (of fiction, clearly) at any cost. However, I have no wish to cause problems for Amy’s husband, who may be as much her victim as the sex workers and activists she constantly defames and libels; though I have no control over what information others have released and may continue to release, I have redacted her last name from the information and pictures presented here so as not to be the agent of harm to a possibly-innocent man.
Norma Jean Almodovar sent “Stella” an open letter, which you can read here; she also posted the following on several Facebook groups:
Many of us sex worker rights activists have been well aware of the vicious lies told about us by an abolitionist calling herself “Stella Marr.” She has bullied us and lied about us in numerous articles, forums and on her blogs. There was nothing we could do about it because we did not know her real identity. She felt free to spread her falsehoods anywhere and everywhere, knowing that there was nothing we could do as long as her cloak of anonymity protected her.
Now we know who she really is. Someone who knows her well and obviously dislikes her enough to “out” her, has provided us with her true name and other very personal information. When I sent a message to Stella’s Facebook page, letting her know that we know who she really is, she confirmed that it was her by responding with a very nasty message threatening action against me if I posted her real name.
It seems her whole story is a fraud, that she is not who she claims to be (in addition to her fake name), and that she was never the victim of pimps who trafficked her into prostitution. Her real story is much more interesting, but I will not share what I learned if she agrees to publicly apologize to all of us who were defamed by her. A number of you already know who she really is, because the person who outed her originally has shared that info with many other people.
I’d like to propose to our community that we give her the opportunity to make that public apology, and then hopefully she will retire the fictitious character “Stella Marr” whom she created in response to her own personal problems which had nothing to do with a past she never lived. (Think William Hillar, fraudster extraordinaire whose alleged true life story became the basis for “Taken”.)
Should she not take the opportunity to publicly retract her false statements and apologize to all of us who have been psychologically battered by her lies and bullying, perhaps we can consider filing a joint lawsuit against her for doing to us what she claims “pimps” and prostitution do to women.
Feel free to post this message anywhere and everywhere that victims of Stella Marr’s lies might read.
Personally, I hope Amy accepts the offer, admits the lies and retires “Stella” (I for one care nothing for her apology, which would be as insincere as everything else she writes); it would accomplish a great deal more good than fully “outing” her ever could, and would demonstrate the lengths to which prohibitionists will go to spread their propaganda.
One Year Ago Today
The conclusion to an interview in which my husband answers questions submitted by readers.
Scratch one flattop …
Stella Marr = FAIL!
Dude … she JACKED UP a screenshot!
http://aprostitutereviewsmovies.wordpress.com/
She included my comment in that screenie and made it look like I had made the first comment in the thread – I DID NOT.
Further, she chopped off a huge segment of your article for that day. So that’s NOT a screenshot – it’s a screen PHOTO shop!
She included the portions of my comment that were a “caveat” to you about being certain about this thing – then she chopped off that portion of my comment where I stated that I personally believed her to be a liar.
Believed? More like CERTAIN at this point with creative editing like that. Why’d she even include my comment anyway? It’s not relevant to her point at all.
Woman needs to seek medical help quickly.
She’s like a female version of Lionel Hutz!
Ha! I thought about that exact scene.
What if her story is all true? What then? You are trying to destroy someone’s life because you don’t agree with her.
the level of malice both here and in twitter conversations I’ve read is shocking. Attack the argument, not the person.
The point of this post is that her story is NOT true; she has demonstrably lied about many important details. I don’t mean “changing the names to protect the innocent”; I mean changing the details so as to harm the innocent. She has created a tissue of lies along the lines of Melissa Farley’s bogus “prostituted women” narrative so as to support the criminalization of men and the infantilization of women; that is not harmless by any stretch of the imagination. Furthermore, she has accused many sex worker activists, including myself, of felony crimes which are the fad prosecution du jour; if you think that’s harmless I don’t know what planet you come from.
Finally, though I can’t speak for anyone else, I have no more “malice” for Amy than for a poisonous spider or snake; it’s a dangerous animal I want rendered harmless, period. Any more “malice” is both unnecessary and counterproductive, and if you imagine you see it in me I suggest you read again more closely.
i think the level of personal attacks here you have made and on twitter are pretty horrendous. You don’t attack her arguments, just her personality. Take the high road it’d make you look better.
If you can say that, you haven’t been reading what I wrote. Until she succeeded in getting me angry with repeated accusations of lying, duplicity, felony crimes and exploitation of my sisters I attacked little OTHER than her statements, and even then I displayed more restraint than most non-Vulcans could manage. Perhaps you’re confusing me with someone else?
I dunno guys. It just seems unnecessarily vicious to make it so personal and ‘out’ her like that. People say crap on the net all the time. Does she really have so much influence? If it’s not true just say it’s not true and move on. I only heard of her a while ago. Sorry Maggie I think I’m thinking in general about the twitter stuff I’ve been seeing and maybe not just your specific words.
She hasn’t been attacking your character as far as i can see, or anyone else’s, but she has been saying that you were a madam etc. Just refute her arguments, or what she says about those alleged offenses, instead of calling her names (I accept I could be thinking of others with regards the name calling) Does she really have so much influence though? There’s piles of these type of people around but they don’t seem to have much effect. Prostitution isn’t going anywhere.
She’s a nobody who was recently handed an assignment to do an anti-sex work statement in The New York Times by Melissa Farley, so she’s getting more influential. The reason narratives like hers need to be exposed is that they are false, but touted as the “truth about prostitution” by Farley, Hunt, Polaris et al. I have no problem with horror stories (such as Jill Brenneman’s) as long as they are TRUE, but promoting lies as truth in order to support more prohibitionist laws (such as the Swedish Model or New York’s new one that allows cabbies to be fined for transporting hookers) is a dangerous evil which must be fought.
I agree that full outing isn’t necessary, which is why I redacted her last name. The important thing is that people know her “pimps and hos” narrative is a fiction created (or possibly adapted and embellished) by a wannabe writer in order to support a prohibitionist agenda.
okay I get it.
But take her on by her activist name instead of using other tactics to scare her into silence. Her real identity has nothing to do with what she’s saying about you or anyone else.
Her real identity has everything to do with it. She has demonstrably lied, writing down these lies, using a pseudonym. When you lie about someone publicly, you can be charged with defamation. In order to lay a charge of defamation, a person’s real name must be known. Like Farley, who lied about a mythical 200-400% increase in the numbers of street workers in Auckland following decriminalisation (can you tell me if 231 [the actual number following decriminalisation] is greater or lesser than 1440 [the claimed 400%] or 720 [claimed 200% increase]), the lies from Stella/Amy must be countered. If it takes a court case to do so, then so be it.
then take her to court, don’t use low tactics like posting her real name and photos of her friends. She’s been through some horrible things. it’s no wonder she is part of the abolitionist groups.
I don’t think I’m going to get anywhere here, think it’s the opposite of preaching to the converted, but best of luck to all of you.
Like what? Her whole fabric of tales is in doubt – not just some very major particulars that have already been disproved.
I’m actually quite proud of the way the girls on our side handled this – by giving Stella a chance to apologize for her lies in return for releasing no personal information on her identity. I highly doubt that Stella would have done likewise had the situation been reversed.
All she really needed to do was say … “Okay, I’m busted – here’s the truth, please punch me out on the “15-minutes of fame” clock.”
It would have been a done deal.
She’s had a week now – why hasn’t she posted a defense of her actions? Why has the only thing she’s done is attempt to purge the internet of some of her self-authored damaging material?
And – I’m not a guy who’s “converted” or “wed” to this side of the argument so much that I’d compromise my principles for it and turn a blind eye to bad actions taken by Maggie and her compadres here. In this case – there is nothing wrong with the truth coming out and it stops, in it’s tracks, a dreadful wrong in Stella Marr’s wild internet tales.
Actually, we don’t know what she’s been through. We know what she claims, but given A) her track record, B) her self-contradiction and C) the fact that she constantly states that bizarre events which happens to virtually nobody else were typical in her experience, there’s no way to ascertain how much of her narrative, if any, is true. For example: she claimed in out Twitter argument that “working girls refer to all managers as ‘pimps'”, which is total nonsense; I’ve known lots of hookers and I’ve never heard “pimp” used in anything but a pejorative sense. Her saying something any real sex worker knows to be rubbish tends to make me wonder how many whores she’s actually met outside of Farleyville.
Exactly krulac,
I think that the freedom folks have been entirely appropriate in their response to this woman who has attempted to get more gov’t grief thrown their way by means of her horror stories. Kudos to Maggie and Jean
I can’t speak for anyone else, but I honestly don’t care if she shuts up or not. Once it’s generally known that she’s a liar her statements will only hurt the prohibitionist cause.
Once it’s generally known that she’s a liar her statements will only hurt the prohibitionist cause.
I would love it if this turned out to be true, but I doubt it. These days, sex work is a “trigger” topic for those who care about it — meaning it’s like environmentalism: everyone has already chosen his/her position, and with it has pre-dismissed anything the other side will ever say as lies.
(An attitude I find nothing wrong with, FWIW. There is such a thing as having heard enough.)
I got a taste of it myself. A woman emailed me that had belonged to her “group”. She said this woman had been bashing me all over hell and back and worst of all – had been accusing me of gone back to madaming! I’m living on $700 a month of SSI and can prove it. How can she accuse me of this? When the woman defended me – she got deleted! Not only am I a survivor who helps other survivors since 1987 for no money, but what’s her excuse for treating the survivor who stood up for me this way? No survivor I know of that’s “real” steps on her brothers and sisters this way. That’s when I got suspicious – and went online and found this about her being “fake”. I emailed her and she said it’s all a lie – but actions speak louder than words. I have a witness and I’m filing slander charges. This lying and bashing has got to stop. I needed to know she’s doing this to other people besides myself because I suspected it. I suspected if she’s doing it to me – she’s doing it to others. And if she’s doing it to us – who else is she doing this to? Something has to be done about this and I’m filing legal charges.
She doesn’t HAVE any arguments. She has uncorroborated, anecdotal horror stories that she defends with accusations of bullying whenever an actual argument is presented to her.
Precisely!
Sorry, no. Remember when Republicans started making those ridiculous “birther” claims about Obama? He “took the high road” and said nothing for too long a time. By the time he addressed those accusations, a part of the US population was convinced that those accusations are utterly true. If you’re accused of something that might maybe be true and you say nothing, people assume that “where there’s smoke, there’s fire,” instead of onlookers applauding your saintly restraint.
I think every creative writing/art group has some attention seeking loon with a possible personality disorder. I remember being in such a group and without getting too personal, lets just say….yeah it’s likely that Stella/Amy doesn’t even have any concept of truth let alone her own.
Does make me wonder whether she first started creating/telling her ‘Stella’ personality during group discussion – wish I was a fly on the wall for that.
This is also a phenomenon frequently seen in evangelical Christian groups — particularly among the Charismatics. They make their old life seem as horrible as possible, in order to make their salvation seem that much more “miraculous.” As a result, they tell what a minister friend of mine calls a “testiphony” rather than a true Christian testimony… and then they pass the plate.
I submit to you the case of Shelley Lubben — a woman with admitted severe mental and addiction issues who brags about her skills as a professional liar and a con artist (although she says she’s now been “healed” by Jesus). The histrionic Lubben (who, interestingly, also brags about her skills as a “creative writer”), will tell an audience whatever it wants to hear as long as she gets to receive attention, sympathy and approval. When she hopped onto the “porn is human trafficking” bandwagon several years into her anti-porn crusade, she suddenly came up with a never-before-told story about her having been trafficked into Mexico (and then pulling off a daring escape worthy of Jason Bourne).
There are Mexican drug mules who don’t pull this much stiff out of their ass.
*stuff
Like Christine O’Donnell and her story about her first date on a satanic altar. There is a rich christian tradition of fabricated public confessions.
So, “Stella Marr” is an invention; has she, I wonder, written other blogs under other names to entrap the gullible, to spread her “message”? And what of her survivors network? The writer of this blog belongs to it:
http://secretdiaryofadublincallgirl.wordpress.com/
and seems to think highly of Stella. But don’t try to warn her about Stella, she probably won’t read what you’ve written and she will certainly delete your comment — it is her privilege, after all. It’s rather sad that some people just refuse to see certain things because their own world-view has to be protected.
This “Dark Halls” film Ms. Marred was technical-advising and assistant-producing, raised a staggering $610 in crowdfunding and seems to have shut down production. This baffles me, since Stella’s forte is eliciting sympathy (and page hits) from feigning victimhood in prostitution.
Where’s that sugar daddy when you need him?
http://www.indiegogo.com/DARK-HALLS-THE-FILM
Yeah, this doesn’t seem to be a project that exists outside of its web page. Is Mariel Hemmingway *really* attached to it? Somehow, I doubt it.
It would almost be laughably pathetic, if it weren’t so fucking infuriatingly deleterious to sex workers.
GBP1000 per night for being with THIS woman…Oh Maggie…say it isn’t so…
Many men are sleeping on the streets in the UK.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2170899/High-class-hooker-went-game-pay-Masters-course-fees-jailed-failing-pay-120-000-tax.html
What are you talking about? 1000 GBP = $1550, and I was charging $1200 in a cheaper market 12 years ago for a partial overnight (I wouldn’t stay past 4 AM). That seems like a wholly reasonable price. Surely you aren’t judging her from an unflattering photograph?
And I’m wondering why there is an implication that an escort’s rates are supposed to be directly proportional to how many homeless men there are in her market? If that’s the case, she shouldn’t be charging anything and then she’d be homeless right along with them.
Not only is this wholly reasonable, but most high-end escorts I know charge even more for overnights.
Funny enough, I was about to ask you if you did “overnights” when you were working and whether even longer engagements were ever considered in the profession. So that saved me some typing. Don’t think the photograph of this woman is that unflattering, actually…
Agreed. For a snapshot of a woman who is not dolled up in any way (she’s in her house shoes), she looks pretty nice.
Considering $US 200-300/hour is typical of “mid-level” escort rates, at least where I live, $1500/night would be entirely proportionate. I’m pretty sure only a minority of clients ask for overnights rather than just an hour or two.
I’d tell all. You can always protect her husband by eliding where they live now and/or his given name.
No, it’s a very distinctive last name.
but others have already linked to a page that lists both her names with pictures. The damage has been done. Delete her first name and that photo. Have honour.
There is no honour when you try to hide a liar from justice. There is no honour when you try to prevent someone who is responsible for damage to others from receiving their just desserts.
If you saw someone you know assaulting another person, would you keep quiet about it? Would you try to protect the person doing the assault?
Any damage to Amy/”Stella” is entirely of her own devising. Amy/”Stella” chose to lie about others. Amy/”Stella” chose to make damaging statements about others. Amy/”Stella” chose, so far, not to make any apology for her actions. Where is the honour in that?
There is no honour is exposing her real name and photos and photos of her friends and husband. There is no honour in that. If she has defamed anyone, you now know her real name, so take her to court. This is like being in a playground. Stella never made any personal, I mean personal, attacks on anyones character. If she’s lied call her out on her lies. Do it the right way. This is not the right way, and makes you all look really bad.
Yes, she did make “personal, I mean personal, attacks on anyones character”. She made false claims about people. These have been addressed elsewhere, and may still lead to court action.
You trying to excuse her lies makes you as bad as someone trying to excuse the person who assaults someone “because they didn’t really mean to do it”.
so she revealed maggies real name and address and posted pictures of her online with her friends and husband?
No she did not.
I’m not excusing any lies anyone has made. I’m also not excusing the blatant bullying I’ve seen on twitter.
Deal with the lies, not the liar.
Prove her wrong. Prove that her lies are actually lies and then you come out of it looking like the better person, and she looks like a liar.
Why are you trying to make a victim out of the person who lied about others? There is ample proof of Amy’s/”Stella’s” lies without me having to point you in that direction (I suggest you start by looking at Amy’s/”Stella’s” blog, and look at who she falsely accuses there, and follow that up, using google if need be).
I suggest you look deeper at your reasons for trying to defend the person who committed the verbal assault by lying.
Why can’t you realise that what you are doing is the same as someone who has witnessed their friend assault someone, then try to say “it didn’t happen”?
I beg to differ; perhaps you don’t find accusations of moral turpitude, a willingness to exploit the helpless, and calculated deception to be “personal”, but I do and so do many others. Tomorrow’s column will explain my exact view of the morality of these actions, though I suspect your mind may already be made up on that account.
Looks like lillady wants unilateral disarmament in the face of Amy/Stella’s prevarication offensive.
This is like being in a playground and she pulled out a tire iron and began swinging.
THANK YOU!
A partial overnight in Seoul goes for $2000 roughly.
Incidentally, Lillady, you may feel this is an unfair attack on Stella Mar, but she absolutely, totally had this coming.
Anything done to her now is completely fair game. More or less everything she’s said is a lie or half-truth; she’s gaining fame and notoriety by telling outright lies.
If this is how prohibitionists work, then it exposes the entire Farley network for the scam artists they are.
Stringing up people (women or not) on the Internet like this is par for the course.
If you don’t want to play – don’t.
No, it isn’t par for the course. It’s a group attack. Today on twitter I saw a threat to rape her. A joke I’m sure. Hilarious. But nothing to do with anything she has said about anyone, it’s just a way to scare her. It’s not fair game unless everyone elses real names and real life pictures are also being scrutinised.
Its more like, ‘if you want to play, you better watch out because we will threaten and scare you online, post pictures of your real life name, your husband and friends, all which have nothing to do with anything you have actually said.’
Then the person who made the threat is also committing an act that is against the law.
Yet you should also understand that people who have committed assaults against people regularly come under fire, from “joke” threats, to real assaults.
And also entirely to do with what she has been saying. If Amy/”Stella” feels she is under threat, she should go to the police, just as any other sane person would. Just as I did when I was being threatened by homophobes when I showed the truth about them.
How about doing things so that they never get to the level of having to go to the cops? WOW! What a concept! People cause others to have to go to the cops, go to civil court, etc. It doesn’t have to be that way. How about following a higher standard other than the 1 the wonderful (gag) world system pushes? It can be done.
I agree. “Stella” should never have started this campaign of lies, never tried to turn her own desire for notoriety into a crusade against people who never would have had a complaint about her otherwise.
It is indeed a tangled web she has woven.
It’s an “attack”? Please. So Stella/Amy can lie and libel, but now she’s a “victim”? What she’s getting from people here, is not an “attack” (an emotionally loaded term, BTW), but it’s outrage. As in, “Peasants with torches and pitchforks storming Dracula’s castle.” Learn the difference.
Or is the thing that you’re not saying, is that you think “Stella” and her prohibitionist rants are “right,” Maggie is wrong, and so even when Maggie is being wronged by Stella, how dare Maggie give Stella any grief?
Will you even acknowledge that what Amy did (libeling people, and lying about her past to push an agenda, all from the cover of a fake identity) were wicked, wicked things to do, and illegal as well? All while Maggie has done >nothing< to this woman? Or are you going to come back with another, "Yes, but" post?
Dear lillady, THANK YOU! No, it’s NOT hilarious, as you say. It’s disgusting, cruel and arrogant. Along with arrogant attacks on Stella’s intelligence and wonderful ideas like “string them up” (yes, that’s the solution! Violence towards people! What a great problem solver! Of course how that can lead to an endless, evil cycle of violence done in the name of revenge-taking is never mentioned. Of course not!). People can be exposed without putting their pictures up, etc. In the 20 something years I’ve done support/activism work for my main cause, I’ve been lied about many times. My murdered family members have been lied about also. Along with calling me disgusting names and the same for my murdered loved 1’s. The written abuse that goes on online is pure evil. At least some of the ###*** I’ve had has been from anonymous cowards (the 1’s that post under “anonymous” OR when you confront them do what I call “hiding in silence”-they literally don’t say a word in reply). I had to bring up possible legal action to a woman who a few years ago accused me at least twice (once in private and at least once in the open on a message board we both belonged to) of making threats to her and everyone on the message board. This lady has never done this again (which I’m thankful for), but if she ever does it again I will take legal action. She literally “outed” herself when I confronted her on the message board after she accused me of making threats in front of everyone on the board. She posted her full name and address trying to goad me into taking legal action. What a sick, sad state of things. I’m with you on if it’s OK to put up peoples’ pictures, etc., etc., then shouldn’t the standard be the same for everyone? I commend Stella for not coming back on this like she COULD. She could easily take all kinds of revenge. Good for her on NOT being part of the vicious, arrogant mindset that says “if you do wrong you deserve all you get”, “string them up”, “it’s OK to expose all kinds of things about people if they do wrong”, etc., etc. I’m also with you on that when you speak out against this very popular mindset that doesn’t automatically mean you’re condoning some things that people do. For anyone to lie about their past life in any way is disgusting, online and off. The thing is like you say confronting people and exposing them can be done with a lot less involved. Supposed “jokes” about rape-type things, stalking, etc., are pure evil. Of course when this is said then the 1’s who revel in it will say “if you want to be thin-skinned then do it”, “get over it”, “move on”, “don’t be so sensitive (that 1 has been shown to be used by abusers all through history), etc., etc. I’m sick and tired of this: that’s how it is online. Go along with it. Abuse is abuse no matter where it happens. The same with arrogance towards things like peoples’ intelligence, revenge-taking, deliberate cruelty like mocking peoples’ diseases (like Stella’s post-traumatic stress disorder has been) and other things. Even if she really doesn’t have that disease if someone says they do that should never be mocked to begin with. If people really do have mental problems does it help them to be mocked, called “insane”, etc.? How about encouraging them to get much-needed help instead? Instead of just writing them off, etc.? The stigma against all kinds of mental illnesses is alive and well way too much, unfortunately. You said in another post all this reminded you of a playground. I see that also and it’s a sick, sad state of things. Like I said before, anyone who lies about their past online and off has done wrong. But, there’s ways of exposing this, etc., that involve taking what’s called “the higher road” instead of the low standard that’s pushed all over, online and off. Thank you again for speaking up.
a) Even if you believe that what Norma Jean Almodovar, Maggie, and others are doing is wrong, that doesn’t make Amy/Stella right.
b) You had the option of taking legal action because you knew who the other person was. Until “Stella’s” identity became known, suing her would have been like trying to sue Pippi Longstocking.
c) Amy did out herself. Her computer wasn’t hacked; she had her profiles linked. The people her tangled web has hurt are taking a very high road when they offer to NOT take legal action if she will just cut it out.
Correct x3
I have encountered many people who’ve attempted to cloak their venomous attacks in anonymity. In the end, they’re always found out — sometimes through carelessness; often because they screwed over someone close to them — but they’re always found out.
A-please note I said that ANYONE who lies about their story online and off is WRONG. It should NEVER happen. I said that at least twice in my posts. Also, the reverse of what you said also applies: just because Stella did wrong (and she did) that doesn’t mean that all the stuff done by those who exposed her, etc., is automatically right. An example: away from here you’ve agreed with me over and over on how if someone says they have a disease that shouldn’t be mocked. Things also shouldn’t be assumed about a person when they say they have a certain disease. This is done constantly with mental illnesses. An example: someone says they have PTSD. The person saying it isn’t liked to begin with for various reasons. So then it’s said about them: they have PTSD so that explains how they are. It explains why they’re crazy, etc. Their medication makes them sicker. And on and on… Do you begrudge that the lady I brought up legal action was known by me before she started her lies? I’m thankful I knew who she was. But, have also had the many cowards who hid behind the screen-name “anonymous” lie about me and my loved 1’s also. C-please note I commended ALL who didn’t expose Stella’s husband.
Above was to Sailor B.
You did indeed grant that StellAmy had done things which are wrong. It’s a bit lost in you solid, unbroken wall of text, but it is there, and is more clear in other posts you have made which I read after this one.
I do not know if StellAmy has post traumatic stress disorder and, to be blunt, neither does anybody here. Anyone claiming that she definitely does or definitely does not is presuming to know what he or she cannot know. To state categorically that she has (or does not have) PTSD and that’s why she does X is doubly presumptuous: it presumes a diagnosis one can’t truly make, and it assigns a behavior to that diagnosis which, even if the diagnosis is (accidentally) correct, may or may not be the explanation for the stated behavior.
But it isn’t out of line for us to wonder, and to speculate, and to discuss our speculations. You and I do this: George W. Bush lost a sister to illness when he was very young, and his parents wouldn’t let him talk about her in any way. He wasn’t even allowed to say that he missed her. Did this weird experience in childhood cause him to be more likely to do some of the things which seem so strange? It would be wrong for you or for me to state as fact: “George W. Bush gave the green light to waterboarding because of what happened with his sister when he was a kid.” We can’t know that. In fact, it would be wrong for us to state as fact that this experience isn’t why he gave a green light to waterboarding. We can’t know that. But we can wonder if it might be related, and we can talk about our speculations, as long as we don’t pretend that they are anything but speculations.
I don’t begrudge you knowing who your troll was. In fact, I’m glad that you knew, because it made a threat of legal action real. And now that Amy is known, she can be dealt with as a person, not as an anonymous phantom.
I had PTSD when I came out of sex work and I never lied about what happened to me and I never lied about other people or bashed them falsely either. No excuse.
I would agree. I’ve known some people with PTSD, and while it’s an aweful thing to deal with, and can cause genuine problems in one’s life, it doesn’t transform honest people into liars.
People really need to stop misusing this word ‘violence’. While it may add some emotional gravitas to your argument, misusing it only does a great disservice to those who actually suffer violence. Much in the same way that a person advocating for the criminalisation of sex workers on the back of an embelished past, harms current sex workers for whom sex work is the best or optimal choice.
Laura, there’s an awful lot of projection in your posts here. I understand that you have been through some things on the internet that you’d rather not have been through, but those things are not this thing, and it’s important to realise that. While I’m sure your story is interesting, it doesn’t strike me as relevant.
I also find myself quite surprised that someone who seems to be interested in fairness and opposed to unfair stereotyping would be fine with the stereotypical and damaging labels of “pimp” being levied at a marginalised group (sex workers) by a person who’s quite obviously embelishing a story for gain, and all the while coming down hard on those of the marginalised groups who seek not to damage, not to hurt, but simply to set the record straight and reduce the harm that this person is able to do to them. Perhaps fairness is only due self-identitifed ‘survivors’?
The reson Stella is not ‘coming back on this’ is because she’s been caught out. To pretend for a second that it’s anything but that, given her long history of persistently and repeatedly starting and continuing arguments up until the point she has no counter and resorts to cries of ‘bullying’, is disingenuous at best – wilfully mirepresentative at worst. This ‘outing’ as you call it – were it true – feeds perfectly into Stella’s ‘victim’ narrative. It would easily expose those she sees as pimps and enemies as abusers, picking on a poor, downtrodden victim. The reason she hasn’t come back on it is because – having made NO effort to remain anonymous – and having attempted to smear the names of sex worker advocates – details of her story are refutable through entirely public information sources. Incidentally, she HAS come back – but not with, as you’d expect, a clarification of her story. No. She’s come back with cries of victimisation and endangerment to her husband’s job. One can only assume that she beleieves her husband’s job to be in danger because she was a sex worker – in which case, why did she make no effort to hide her identity?
Taking “the high road” might work for you, but to pretend that the act of consolidating puclicly available information about a person who has attempted to smear one’s reputation with allegations of criminal activity (and to thereby attempt to remove one’s voice and legitimacy while loudly proclaiming that their own voice and legitimacy are being threatened) is taking “the low road”? Sorry. I just don’t see it.
You pre-empted the ‘man-up’ argument, of course – but if one is going to enter into activism, particularly into activism that has two distinct ‘sides’ that oppose each other – then a certain amount of this stuff is to be expected. And no degree of willing human beings to be different, or willing one side to stand idly by and act as punshing bag for the other in the name of “the high road” is going to change that. Even when “the high road” is being prescribed, apparently, to only one ‘side’, while the other side is supposedly right to enjoy the freedom to defame and accuse at will, with no consequence.
Dear humanist tweeter, you talk about true victims of violence. Please know before you judge what I say: I’ve done support/activism work for the surviving family members and friends of murder victims since 1990. Since 2002 it’s been on a daily basis. I’m usually pretty discreet on here about this (for various reasons). But, in this case it needs to be said. You’re talking to someone who has a lot of experience in dealing with people who have been greatly affected by the violence done to their family and/or friends. I’m also 1 of these people which is 1 of the reasons my avatar says “survivor”. If my plans has been different the day of the tragedy in my family it’s a high possibility I wouldn’t be here. There’s also violence done to these victims’ family and friends in the sense that they weren’t physically attacked but their wounds are the kind that aren’t literally seen on the body. These wounds are devastating also. So please don’t talk to me about “disservice” to people who have had violence done to them, how I talk about how some literally revel in saying it’s a “solution”, etc. When you say someone’s information or whatever isn’t “relevant” (like you did in my case) then you purposely miss the information about them that truly does apply to what they’re saying. Perhaps fairness is only due self-identitifed ‘survivors’?-IF (and please note I’m saying “if”) you mean by this I put my avatar up to state that only certain people should get acknowledgement, etc., then you’re plain wrong. I’m hoping this isn’t the case with you. Also, please note I said in other posts that what Stella did was wrong. I said it repeatedly. That includes her saying people are pimps when they really aren’t. It includes all the lies she told. I guess I didn’t meet your standard of spelling out every single thing that Stella did that I’m convinced is wrong. I’ll write more on this later in the day when I have more time.
Your background is available for anyone to read when clicking your name here. You have a profile. I had read it, and was therefore privy to the information you provide here already.
You did say that what Stella has done is wrong. But you also go to great lengths to condemn those that counter her wrongdoing, with assertions that life should be entirely fair and that the wronged should be saintly in wanting no opportunity to answer against those who would harm them. No opportunity to discredit those who purposely misrepresent themselves in a way that could severely harm and discredit people of a certain minority whose voices are already silenced enough. More than enough.
With ‘survivor’ I was referring to Stella and her ilk. I am somewhat wrapped up in the sex-work discourse, and hadn’t considered the effect that the use of that word may have on you. For that I apologise – but it was meant in the context of sex work only.
I disagree, and always will, for reasons I’m not prepared to post about here, with the use of ‘violence’ to cover everything from perceived typed attacks on the interweb to violent murder. It DOES do a disservice, in my opinion, when people conflate mean words they can easily escape by closing a website, with actual violence that happens to people with lasting consequences. Being oversensitive to mean words is not the same as being the victim of actual violence, sorry. EVEN if you need therapy to get over the mean words.
Your background is available for anyone to read when clicking your name here. You have a profile. I had read it, and was therefore privy to the information you provide here already.
My reply: yes, you’re completely right on that. Please notice, though, I didn’t go into detail about my family tragedy. That’s on purpose. I’ve chosen not to do that on here overall for various reasons. I choose to go into detail on a “case by case” basis based on what I’ve learned since I started doing support/activism work in this area.
You did say that what Stella has done is wrong. But you also go to great lengths to condemn those that counter her wrongdoing, with assertions that life should be entirely fair and that the wronged should be saintly in wanting no opportunity to answer against those who would harm them. No opportunity to discredit those who purposely misrepresent themselves in a way that could severely harm and discredit people of a certain minority whose voices are already silenced enough. More than enough.
My reply: The “life isn’t fair so let’s go along with that and not be fair with it” mentality. It’s a very popular cop-out. It’s similar to “because people are literally mammals they’re also literally animals SO since we’re animals that gives me the OUT for my disgusting behavior. I’m literally an animal so I can’t help myself”. Another total cop-out. I have an idea: how about people making things as fair in possible as life instead of just giving in and giving up? I’m so sick of the “life isn’t fair” cop-out. It also allows people to do nothing about anything and they can excuse that with “life isn’t fair. There’s no point. You can’t fight city hall”, and on and on. Totally defeatist AND lazy. Some news for you: people can and do make things more fair in life. If we never try to make anything better than nothing will ever change. Is that any kind of quality life? It’s not. It’s a life of defeatism and apathy which never do anything to make anything better for ANYONE. You bring up (unfortunately) something that others have done on this thread: if you say there should be tact, restraint and decency used towards those who have wronged you that automatically means that you CONDONE EVERYTHING the person did. This is very popular in the world, unfortunately. This doesn’t automatically mean that the person didn’t do wrong. What it does mean is that if YOU make vicious, arrogant personal attacks on THEM and ASS-umptions about THEM based on incomplete information, they YOU are on THEIR level. You’re sinking to their level. Then it can easily become an ENDLESS cycle of fighting. These endless cycles of fighting can lead to physical violence. Once again, I’m convinced Stella did wrong. But, Stella could be confronted without vicious, arrogant ###*** and ASS-umptions about her. To mock her specifically about a disease she claims she has, make arrogant remarks about how smart she is, etc., isn’t needed. It’s besides the facts of her lies. It’s done to hurt her as she’s hurt others. The fact is no one on here (including me) can know 100% for sure how smart Stella or ANYONE is. We also don’t know how much she does love her husband or not. I’m sick of peoples’ love being mocked (like with ###*** like “they think they’re in llllloooovvvveee”.) What a vicious, arrogant thing! The only 1 who can know 100% for sure how much people love anyone is God. And no one on here is God including me.
With ‘survivor’ I was referring to Stella and her ilk. I am somewhat wrapped up in the sex-work discourse, and hadn’t considered the effect that the use of that word may have on you. For that I apologise – but it was meant in the context of sex work only.
My reply: thank you for having the decency to apologize. Speaking of sex work, you pointed out above how whores are a small group. I’m 100% with you on this. I say thank God for this small group of women who can have sex without emotional attachment. I’m 1 of this group in that I’m able to do this but I’ve chosen to help differently. My thing is to not literally charge a cent for sex and keep the costs of meeting up for it as little as possible for men. The men who can’t afford whores and/or don’t want to see them need help also. The women like me also get lied about. I’m sick of it. 1 of my new causes is to speak up for us (we need it, unfortunately). I say fight the lies against ALL women in this small group. Also say give credit to ALL who help men out sexually. I’m for decriminalization for prostitution and have been for a long time.
I disagree, and always will, for reasons I’m not prepared to post about here, with the use of ‘violence’ to cover everything from perceived typed attacks on the interweb to violent murder. It DOES do a disservice, in my opinion, when people conflate mean words they can easily escape by closing a website, with actual violence that happens to people with lasting consequences. Being oversensitive to mean words is not the same as being the victim of actual violence, sorry. EVEN if you need therapy to get over the mean words.
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The rest of what I wanted to say to you (humanist tweeter): sorry for another post but WordPress is asking me to log in again, etc. You talk about therapy needed to get over mean words. Verbal abuse is devastating especially when it comes from a parent and/or other authority figure. Verbal sexual abuse caused me to be frigid in the past. HOWEVER, it’s up to the person to work on their healing. I did the years of work to heal and became the OPPOSITE of frigid. That’s when I started helping out men sexually at no charge, etc. Anyway, there’s a real danger of when you say people are oversensitive of going to the other extreme of “it’s only words”. They really don’t hurt people, etc., etc. The thing is they CAN and DO. Verbal/written abuse is rampant online. That doesn’t mean it’s OK. Unfortunately, some revel in it. They think it’s “funny”. There’s people who list the abusive, crude words, etc., they use towards people and revel in that and laugh about it. The people who do get help are to be commended. They break the cycle of abuse. It isn’t “weak” to get help for verbal abuse. It’s the opposite. Unfortunately, this society pushes the ###*** that those who get truly bullied, abused, etc., should just “get over it”, “move on”, “toughen up”, etc., etc. Sometimes true bullying, etc., happens so many times that people need help to recover and not be abusers themselves. There’s also those who come from a non-abusive background that have no idea what it’s like to grow up in an abusive home. Some of these don’t WANT to know. They think you just do what I did then you’ll be fine. RIGHT! What arrogance! Others join in with the 1’s who revel in their verbal/written abuse: how clever of you! How funny! What a sad state of things. “…but those things are not this thing, and it’s important to realise that. While I’m sure your story is interesting, it doesn’t strike me as relevant.”-1 reason I posted about the lies I’ve gotten (plus my murdered loved 1’s have) is to say “you’re not alone”. This isn’t because of some ego trip either. It helps others to know they’re not alone with anything bad that’s happening to them. I know this from years of experience with support work. People can and do help each other heal in this way. I’m sorry that ANYONE on this thread has gotten lied about online. It’s disgusting and should never happen. Just because people get lied about within a different cause from the sex worker cause doesn’t mean their experience is of no help. It still has value. Also, people who have been lied about within working for a different cause can encourage people in other groups to keep going. I’ve done that on here. Last thing: the people who truly have been affected by violence done to their family and/or friends know the danger of this mentality of “string them up”, “beat them up”, “execute them with no trial”, “take justice into your own hands”, etc., etc. It can be very dangerous IF LITERALLY CARRIED OUT and lead to endless cycles of violence and devastation. Does the world need any new survivors of murder victims OR people who survive violent attacks? NO! Should we go back to the “good old days” (gag) where people were executed without even a trial? Public executions? Killing witches, non-Catholics, etc.? Do we want to get on that sick, evil level? If we talk about how people should be “strung up”, beat up, killed, etc., so casually then what level does that put us on? Are we any better than the 1 we think should be killed, beat up, etc., without even a trial? OK, have gone on enough here. Thanks for listening.
Once again, Laura, your posts arew full of projection and extrapolation, where you accuse me of things you imagine I mean, rather than addressing what I said.
1: Once again – I don’t think your background is relevant here. There are probably at least a few people here who’ve been through various things. We don’t use it in an argument where it’s not relevant though – not even to say “WI know sort of how you feel” – because it’s not relevant. Emotive appeals do not valid arguments make. And emotive appeals are the business of the other ‘side’, like Amy.
2: Just because you believe that some behaviours are ‘disgusting’ doesn’t mean everyone does – and we are not bound to stick to your personal vision of what human behaviour should be. It’s rather ironic that your lecturing someone else involved in activism on the fact that things can be changed and strived for. Is my activism less important or relevant than yours because I don’t think the way you do?
3: Please point out to me where anyone suggested that you condone Amy’s behaviour.
4: Why are you lecturing here on this blog about comments you apparently saw on twitter/elsewhere?
5: Please list the assumptions and personal attacks. I’ve seen very few. Those that I have seen – such as a suggestion that Stella may have some sort of personality disorder – don’t seem like unfair assumptions at all.
People don’t stick to saying only things they’re 100% sure about, Laura. Never have, never will. And people don’t, have never, and will never, practice this one-sided ‘fairness’ or ‘high road’ as it was referred to earlier – because it means turning oneself into a punching bag. And some people, myself included, are simply not buily to be punching bags for other people. No matter how much of a superior sense of fairness someone else tells us we should be getting from it.
Please try not to use God in your arguments with me. From my angle – god knows nothing because it is a man made concept.
Re: charitable whoring – whatever floats your boat – but I’d say women who have sex with men without teh ecxxchange of cash are alreqady left alone, pretty much. Certainly in terms of criminal proceedings etc.
I didn’t say words couldn’t hurt people, Laura. I said that they were not the same thing as violence, and that the two things shouldn’t be conflated. I stand by this 100%.
To address the rest of your post – I’m really not sure how killing witches and public executions is applicable to this woman whos publicly available information has beren consolidated in one place for the purpose of disproving damaging lies that she told. So I’m gonna leave it there.
Please point out to me where anyone suggested that you condone Amy’s behaviour.-my reply: I also find myself quite surprised that someone who seems to be interested in fairness and opposed to unfair stereotyping would be fine with the stereotypical and damaging labels of “pimp” being levied at a marginalised group (sex workers) by a person who’s quite obviously embelishing a story for gain. Just because you believe that some behaviours are ‘disgusting’ doesn’t mean everyone does – and we are not bound to stick to your personal vision of what human behaviour should be. It’s rather ironic that your lecturing someone else involved in activism on the fact that things can be changed and strived for. Is my activism less important or relevant than yours because I don’t think the way you do?-my reply: Yes, I know and somehow learned this in 47 years of life and being in support/activism work since 1990 that not everyone agrees with me on this whole thing, OK? Yes, I somehow figured that out and without your patronizing. WOW! Is it wrong to give a DIFFERENT point of view? You’ve probably noticed a pattern on here that if someone does you or a whole group wrong that means you can come back at them in any way. So I give a different view than that. Speaking of fairness, a big reason I came here was to give other points of view that were really needed. 1 was to speak up as a woman who helps men out sexually at literally no charge which was really needed. Please realize that the FULL picture is needed on things in order to be fair and for people to get FULL information. An example is the issue of forgiveness with MVS (what I call surviving family and/or friends of murder victims). BOTH sides of the issue need to be given to people. Without that these people aren’t getting the full picture. That’s very wrong and unfair. This applies to other issues. I’ve read up on BOTH sides of the prostitution issue. I did that on purpose. I knew without it I wouldn’t have the full picture. Your remark about why am I talking about stuff on here that went on on other websites: are you some kind of Internet police? Is there some law saying people can’t talk about what happens in other places? I notice you don’t get on anyone else doing this. Lillady did this and you don’t say a word to her. I personally think this a cheap shot on your part to rile me up even more. It won’t work because this is the last word I’m saying on it. As far as you involved in activism I’ve never seen you say a word about that. Sorry, I don’t have ESP. Maybe you did say something and I missed it. If so I apologize. An FYI, you can reach people without personal attacks (speaking of that I did already list the 1’s made towards Amy on here so am not going to list them again. They’re in the my posts before this 1). I’ve done it REPEATEDLY with my main cause. So please don’t tell me it never works. The belief that if you take a higher road that makes you weak is very popular with the WONDERFUL (gag) world system. Like I said earlier, I’ve done this and it’s worked. I reached 1 of the hardest-hearted people I’ve ever seen in my life in the debate about the death penalty this way. This man and I ended up being friendly to each other and talking online on a regular basis. I could give more examples but won’t as have gone on enough plus there’d probably be something found wrong with them. You can not use personal attacks and also not be a punching bag. I’ve done it repeatedly including with the man I mentioned just now I got through to. OK, I won’t use God in the future with you. I’m sorry if that caused you any upset. As far as charitable whoring goes, I’m with you that NO WOMAN should be arrested for ANY sex she does as long as the others involved are consenting adults. This is a big reason I’m for decriminalization of prostitution. However, please realize that the women like me ARE open to arrest with these laws about how if you’re carrying condoms it’s ASS-umed you’re a whore. These laws are a disgusting outrage. So, the women like me aren’t fully free of the law. ALL women should be free of the law when it comes to sex between consenting adults. But, there’s stigma against the women like me and lies about us also. An example: we’re homewreckers. We LOVE to wreck homes. We’ll date anyone and if you date us you’re risking your relationship, etc., etc. We’re just too risky to bother with at all (eyeroll). The 1’s like me who have never done this and never will are never talked about. Totally wrong and unfair. It’s as bad as statements as “whores are on drugs”. With that statement there’s no mention of the 1’s who aren’t on drugs. This is done on purpose as it’s done on purpose with the women like me. The reason I mentioned witch killings was as an example of what the talk of it’s OK to use violence against people can lead to and HAS lead to all through history. That’s why I brought it up. Like you I’m going to now leave this as it is.
Callum,
Like Farley, who lied about a mythical 200-400% increase in the numbers of street workers in Auckland following decriminalisation (can you tell me if 231 [the actual number following decriminalisation] is greater or lesser than 1440 [the claimed 400%] or 720 [claimed 200% increase]), the lies from Stella/Amy must be countered. If it takes a court case to do so, then so be it.
Um, actually, a court case was held over this, and Farley’s work was discarded as more or less suspect claptrap – ideology masquerading badly as science, and mostly lies.
She was called “unreliable and questionable” with “suspect motives”. I believe the court case was in Canada, hearings over some law there.
As usual, the Canadians very slightly more sane than us.
That wasn’t the only thing she lied about though. Like “Stella”, she deliberately manufactured much material that was false, and used valid material in such a way as to mislead people about what that material actually said, twisting it to indicate it was saying the opposite of what the original material actually said. The example above came from one paper in 2003, citing the Prostitution Law Review Committee Report. One the same page she takes the “quote” from, is a refutation of the myth. Needless to say Farley did not give the refutation from that report.
You should be aware that this came to light before the Bedford case was argued before the Canadian courts.
To humanist tweeter, WordPress acted up again just now. I’m not going to keep going around on these subjects mentioned before with you again. I’ve made a fool of myself at times with this and am working to do it less. I’ve made improvements (Sailor Barsoom can confirm this) and will keep doing so.
Lillady,
There’s nothing about honor here.
Amy made up lies to smear whores, to lend political support to a bogus cause.
She used her anonymity to make up stories . I’m betting nothing she said was true.
In other words, she’s a stooge for a repressive political cause.
Outing such a horrible person is fair game.
My reading of the “Stella” story/myth is that she attended Barnard in the 1980s before being derailed by her parents “Mom said I couldn’t continue school and I couldn’t live at home,” and then victimized when her “grief made a micro-climate around [her]” that drew sadistic pimps.
A key part of the “Stella” story/myth is that later, in the early 1990s, she was “kept” by a British professor (from either Oxford or Cambridge, as Maggie notes). This wealthy man supposedly bought her a condo in Manhattan across the street from Lincoln Center and placed the deed in her name.
She claims she sold the condo, either while she was already back at Columbia, or prior to returning to classes. In a contrived “letter to her 20 year old self” Stella/Amy wrote:
“After you’ve sold the condominium and are living in a graduate dorm at Columbia University, a man with eyes like blue shattered glass will sit beside you in the cafeteria. When he begins to speak you know he’s the unmet beloved you’ve been writing poems to all these years. You’ll try to run away, but he won’t let you. Fourteen years later the two of you will be hiking through pink granite outcroppings with your Labrador retriever. You’ll feel like the freest woman in the world.
She seems to imply that she returned to school in the 1990s for graduate work at Columbia.
Well, I found the condo (on W. 61st St), and it was deeded in her name in August 1992. It would appear Stella took out a $60,000 mortgage in June 1994, but she did not actually sell the condo until October 1998.
Her husband’s C.V. indicates that he attended Columbia from Fall 1993 to May 1995 for his MS in Applied Physics, and continued there until May 1998 to earn his PhD.
Although Stella writes that after she sold the condominium she lived in a graduate dorm at Columbia University, at the time she sold her condo, both she and her husband had already graduated from Columbia.
Public records show that the address she gave at the time of the transfer of the condo’s title was in Richmond, CA (where, as a married woman, she purchased a house with her current husband 8 months later).
So, while it’s possible that she moved into a graduate dorm with her husband at some point during their Columbia courtship, clearly she has altered the timeline for dramatic purposes…
To wit, in the Stella myth, she seemingly had to sell the condo in order to continue her schoolwork. It’s as if she had to purge herself of that dirty place attained through sex work, in order to be worthy of receiving love and happiness from her “unmet beloved.”
This is fairytale land, folks.
Just like another fraud, Shelley Lubben, Amy has apparently moved specific events in the historical timeline to give them heightened dramatic or poetic meaning.
As for her her claim that she attended Julliard, I can find references online to Amy working as a piano teacher — but more interestingly, I found a book review, written in her real name in June 2005. The book concerns sex and other vices in the world of classical music:
“A gorgeous Juilliard cellist ends up selling herself for coke. A young, idealistic oboe player (our heroine) ends up getting jobs while in bed with powerful conductors and soloists – who ultimately betray her affection and sincerity.
“If you’ve ever wondered what it is like to be young, fabulously gifted, and living a Bohemian life in a big city, you will love this book. If you’ve lived the life (as I have), this book will remind you of those intensely vulnerable and inspiring times.”
A sprinkle of history, a dash of romantic fiction, and a heap of fanatical agenda — was this the recipe for Stella Marr?
She actually outed herself a few weeks ago on Melissa Farley’s blog in one of her articles about all sex worker rights activists being pimps. Her screenshots to the abuse she suffered on twitter include the whole screen showing her email open and her real name showing. As I always say, the greatest crime is stupidity…..
She outted herself … and her true identity is now in the public domain. That’s the end of it, really. I have refrained from posting her current address and I won’t publish any of her pedigree information — SS #, DL #, etc (which, I do not possess in any case) — because the goal here is not to create illegal problems for her such as identity theft, but to parse through her mythical life story and convince her that it’s time to come clean and apologize to those she has defamed, vilified, stigmatized and demonized
Along the way, I am confident that others who have known her over the years will come forward with new information on our Amy. I’m certain Amy knows this, as well.
I need an address to send the summons and complaint I’m filing. I’ve been waiting for a witness and I have one now.
I’m just throwing this out there because of slight similarities… could the same person writing “Stella Marr” be the person who also wrote as “Olympia Manet” back in the early 2000’s? I’m thinking the flat, the Columbia connection, the interest in music, the physical description of herself… Olympia’s been offline some years now, so I may also be misremembering (and if she’s reading this and real and not Stella, many apologies).
I truly hope they aren’t the same person, and I doubt they are. Postmodern Courtesan had a much better head on her shoulders on a bad day than this “Stella Marr” has on a good day.
I kinda miss Postmodern’s blog, but I guess she had to move on in her life.
I’ll bet Amy actually believes her story – she needs to. She needs to purify her early existence.
Anyway, her stories always sounded “just so’, and now that her hallucinations have been thoroughly outed. perhaps she’ll be ripe for withdrawing her delusions from the public sphere and prohibitionists will have to hunt for another delusional victim porn cardboard cutout .
This Stella Mar should be strung up.
Forget protecting her. People like her are actual public menaces.
In a previous age, she’d have been claiming that the otherwise harmless black guy down the street had raped her, and she was powerless to resist because of the juju power emanating from his eyes.
Anyone defending her needs to take a good, hard, long look at what their motivation is – because it’s got nothing to do with honor, decency or the public good.
More like cynical ideological face-saving.
PS,
She’s relatively transparent, an always was; her tone ranged from a hurt “Why are you silencing me by disagreeing with what I write?” >> obviously lying, to “I BELIEVE! All Sinners will be Thrown down!”
What’s sad is that a lot of prohibitionists, mostly the none too bright ones, fell for her immediately.
What struck me was that she never seemed very intelligent from her responses: more like a talking parrot or reason-limited child.
I suspect she may, indeed, have severe psychological issues.
But not being all that intelligent is clearly a major characteristic.
Sadly, even someone like Taslima Nasrin was completely taken in by her – but in her case, I’m assuming rather generously that this was the result of being exceptionally naive about the undercurrents of Western culture.
It’s not just “the none too bright ones” who “fall for” these frauds — it is the fanatics who place their own agenda above truth or anything resembling justice — or even simple honest discourse.
The entire reason I got involved in exposing (and debunking the mythologized life story of) the obviously insane Shelley Lubben was that anti-porn, anti-sex work fanatics were using her lies as “proof” that horror stories not only existed, but constituted the norm!
In November 2010, I watched in horror as professors, public health officials, and activist leaders of UCLA’s Reproductive Health Interest Group threw their arms around Lubben and cited her “story” as proof that their own anti-sex work agenda needed to be implemented. Lubben herself has no power or influence, but AHF, a 200 million dollar organization of AIDS profiteers promoted her completely unverified (and unverifiable) claims regarding the porn industry of 1993-94 as proof that the rights of self determination of adult performers MUST be abridged today in the name of turning escapist entertainment into condom ads.
You can see the same thing happening with groups like Morality In Media — as long as you follow their anti-sex/anti-sex work narrative, they will promote ANYTHING you say, regardless how ridiculous, unverified and illogical it is.
The Marrs and Lubbens of the world peddle propaganda and rhetoric — which is precisely why they engage in debate. Those who disagree with them are the enemy — of their own self-serving myths, and of their powerful masters.
“Even” Taslima Nasreen? Taslima had the chance to get the story from a number of us who replied to Greta Christina’s survey? She chose Stella Marr to feature on her channel. Taslima Nasreen does NOT impress me.
I think you’ve handled this well, Maggie. Amy “Marr” had to be called out. Her lies aren’t just lies but they influence policy, funding, public perception. But her husband isn’t doing that, and there is a chance that Amy’s telling the truth (for once) when she says that revealing her last name would endanger his job. So, you didn’t give that out.
It’s out there, and there’s not a lot you can do about that, but you didn’t do it, and you are right when you say that her being discredited is much more important than her being outed.
I wouldn’t mind in the least her hiding her identity if she were telling truths instead of lies.
I’ll go further than that; I wouldn’t even care if she was lying as long as she was only doing it for her own amusement (as so many do on the internet) rather than contributing to a campaign to hurt people.
OK, I’m cool with that. After all, does anybody really believe that I teach a participatory sex-ed class?
I’m really having a hard time understanding this talk of ‘outing’ the poor little aspiring misery-porn hack.
To compare it to Maggie, for example – if a person set out with the intention of outing Maggie, captured her IP or whatever and figured it out from there (presuming she doesn’t proxy, and I’m guessing she does) – after it being obvious that Maggie has gone to great pains to conceal her identity – then yeah, that would be wrong.
If, however, Maggie had been so unconcerned about her real identity being discovered that she had used real-life, full-facial shots as profile pictures, had appeared at public conferences (and not objected to the video being posted on Youtube) and, moreover, had linked her Maggie twitter account to her real-identity Facebook account, knowing that there was an overwhelming abundance of information out there in the W3 that could easily be used to corroborate (or, more germanely, falsify) her story – and someone found said info and identified her… yeah. Not wrong.
One might almost be inclined to wonder why a woman (Amelia/Stella) who has apparently spent her entire life running from evil, murderous pimps and traffickers, would be so blasé with her real identity.
I mean, her first interview, given to Used Furniture Review, has a picture of her at the top of the page. And was tweeted from her personal twitter account (now deleted) with the same picture. To a bunch of writers.
To suggest that Maggie has tried to dangerously out someone who so carelessly linked her identity to her made-up persona all across the internet is flagrantly disingenuous at best.
Shoulda been a standalone post, not a reply. Soz!
ALL who have chosen to NOT expose Stella’s husband’s identity are to be commended. He’s a separate person from her. It’s within possibility he doesn’t even have any interest in her cause. He may not be involved at all. Messing with peoples’ jobs is a very serious thing especially in this economy.
I’m curious: has anyone has the guts and decency to confront Stella to her face? By this I mean go to her DIRECTLY (speak and/or write to her directly instead of talking behind her back) and ask her: do you have any proofs of your story? If anyone has done this, wonderful! People deserve a chance to prove their stories if they’re ever questioned on them. ALL deserve this chance.
“had the guts”-sorry, it’s early.
Forgot to add this to my earlier post (sorry, it’s STILL early…LOL): has anyone confronted Stella to her face (instead of talking behind her back) from the BEGINNING (i.e, when her story was 1st doubted?) If so, wonderful! The lady I brought up possible legal action to a while back (the 1 who said I made threats) at least had the decency and guts to say it directly to my face 1st. If she’d only said it behind my back I would have been more upset. Anyway, I hope that people did confront Stella to her face in the beginning. Also hope they did it with tact and restraint (I know that’s not how it’s supposed to be online…eyeroll).
“Stella” only rends to appear publicly at prohibitionist events which don’t allow sex worker rights people. One of my sources for this column knows her in person and has indeed confronted her, only to be rebuffed and told she doesn’t know what she’s talking about despite the fact that she was a hooker for many years.
Confront Stella to her face? She’s paranoid enough as it is, and she’s only take that as a physical threat. She’s been confronted extensively via correspondence about her misuse of the term “pimp” and the defamatory nature of her accusations, both by people directly accused by her and people she’s on more civil terms with. She’s either ignored such input, or, based on the fact that she simply repeats herself when argued with, perhaps lacks the mental capacity to even understand what’s wrong with her talking points and what she’s doing.
Regardless of whether Stella’s paranoia and victim mindset are genuine or merely an act, you are correct. Confronting her would play right into her hands. She started a war from a comfortable distance; now that her comfort has been (appropriately) diminished, she will be exposed from a distance.
And yes, her favored Proof by Assertion logical fallacy would be far more irritating were it not so incredibility stupid and transparent.
Yes I did. I asked her directly and she told me directly that she was a “true” victim. Then a couple of days later I got the email from someone in her group who told me she was “bashing me” and saying that I had “gone back to madaming” and when she defended me to the group and asked them to stop their attack – they deleted her. So that’s what I get for asking her the truth. I even had invited her on my radio show to share “her side” of the story to which she turned me down.
I think some of this might be the “victim narrative” of the modern age. Now, instead of being individuals, we’re all “victims” of one kind or another. We don’t relate to others and are no longer responsible for anything; indeed, as multipe “victim” categories apply to us, everyone from every political persuasion is angling after Greatest Victim certification.
It’s one of the reasons I detest many in the men’s rights movement. They’ve sensibly adopted the left/”feminist”/racist positions that classes matter more than people.
this marxist analysis has only ever led to greater impositions on basic freedoms and personal responsibilities and rights, in the quest for “justice”, which seems to be a highly variable concept.
it’s repulsive. Amy P. wants to led credence to a “universal Victim of Prostitution / Porn” myth, and like the religious denying evolution, like the communists denying their philosophies are soul-crushing rights-obliterating tyrannies (“No! China is the apotheosis of Good and Right!”), … like the religious and the politically blind, she wants to lend support to her chosen religious belief–
And like the crusading religious moralists, she’s more than happy to invent out of thin air all kinds of stories. Why? Because It’s God’s Work (justifying lying for God), it’s for Social Justice (justifying blatant racism or oppression in the name of redistributive “justice”), it’s for Justice (racism to fight racism), or it’s for Our Great Leader (um, … a sadly universal human behavior). The hagiographic approach to Obama, truly a dithering, more or less useless, gutless sockpuppet of a leader whose performance so far has been abysmal at best and all sides agree on this one, though for different reasons, ….
It’s just like the creationists lying about evidence for evolution: it’s for God, so you can invent whatever shit you want, because We Know We’re Right.
The neofeminist movements are saturated to overflowing with these religiously-devoted nutcases. They stink of conspiracy theorists and sophomoric sophistry, all in the name of promoting some furtherance of a facile, idiotic “victim narrative” in order to secure greater power for some nefarious goal.
it’s not just government I distrust.
I distrust people. And for good reason. I think people know what they’re doing when they vote for tyrranical policies: Most people are nannyish busybodies who care deeply what other people voluntarily get up to.
dismepowering these social engineers is one of the greatest boons it’s possible to give to a nation.
We don’t relate to others and are no longer responsible for anything; indeed, as multipe “victim” categories apply to us, everyone from every political persuasion is angling after Greatest Victim certification.
Oh yes. I’ve also heard this referred to as the Oppression Olympics. Only gold medals, no silver or bronze. And you’re spot on in the rest of your post.
And a hearty “Amen” to that!
I think the bigger story would be how “Stella Marr” was so quickly found and taken up by the “abolitionist” movement. Farley was an early promoter, and the “Survivors Connect” blog network was quickly formed around her. (And I have to wonder how many of them are on the level. Perhaps some are, but there are probably at least a few other “Stellas” among them.) The anti-sex industry people were definitely very quick to push her to the front and center as “Exhibit A” for their “unhappy hooker” narrative.
Clearly, this is evidence that they’re worried. Sex workers rights and labor/migration issues finally have some traction in the discourse around “trafficking” after an entire decade of being systematically excluded and written out of it, by conservatives and “progressives” alike, and the antis aren’t too happy about it. As I seem to remember, there was a section in the 2010 Hunt Alternatives “Demand Abolition” master plan about the need to neutralize the “happy hooker” lobby and its supporters. This pushing of a “survivors” counter-movement (in spite of its lack of actual numbers) would seem to be related.
I think you’re absolutely right — and on to something.
I agree with Michael.
I run a support group for men and women who are coming out of the sex industry to help us with the adjustment. We are not about bashing the industry nor do we have an agenda. We just meet to help each other adjust. When I heard about her group – I wondered “why the separate group” and then I discovered why – they are led by Stella Marr to build support for their abolition movement. When I made it clear I would not support their abolition movement and I was not against sex work (I just have chosen not to return because of my family and my sobriety and that’s my personal choice) – they came at me with fangs and claws out. So far I’ve uncovered three “fake” victims who are pushing for abolition and they are all in her group. The truth always comes out in the wash is what I’ve been finding out.
Does the concoction of a false or embellished horror story really matter when the events supposedly occurred in the context of the status quo (prohibition). In that case I don’t see how any bad story can support continuing the prohibition. Anecdotes and statistics whether true or false make very bad source material for creating legislation and policy when they are not understood. It is important to understand why something horrible was allowed to happen and if you want to stop it, find a way to do so by enforcing the most simple and universally accepted laws. Virtually everyone agrees that it should be illegal to force any person to be a prostitute against their will (or force people to do just about anything against their will for that matter). So why does it sometimes happen? Of course as long as their is even one evil person willing to enslave another the risk that it will happen is real. So how can we fight that? It seems incredibly obvious to me that forcing the entire market sector underground can do absolutely nothing to help such victims and can only help the perpetrators to access to victims by virtue of the fact that potential victims have to weigh their fear of imprisonment or the loss of income by the police against their fear of a possible perpetrator. IMO, the fact that someone has entered into the sex marketplace should not mean that they should be denied police protection from abduction, rape, violence, etc. Although I think that most people would agree with that statement, but the prohibitionists fail to realize that the denial of police protection to sex workers is what they are promoting. I am sure that Maggie, has described the mechanics of this in numerous posts much more eloquently and with more direct knowledge than I can, but my point is that this seems to be the better hill to die on than arguing with prohibitionists about trafficking numbers. Tell me if I am wrong 🙂
I’ll tell you that you are RIGHT.
Stella’s latest screed is entitled “Our bonds are just too strong for you”
In it, Stella/Amy addresses Ms. McNeill, Ms. Almodovar, myself and others in her usual hysterical fashion.
Of me, she writes: “Whiteacre posted my husband’s cell phone number, information about his work colleagues, our address, and many other personal details.”
No, Amy, actually it was you and her husband who posted all those details online — I merely linked to them. Someone who makes their own “personal” information public is estopped from claiming that said information remains private. This is common sense, as well as law.
“Stella” goes on to make several claims about the porn industry (and myself), and her source is a mentally ill woman in Nevada who goes by the name Monica Foster.
Foster — a wash-out and pariah in both the worlds of pornography AND prostitution — has filed false police and CPS reports on her enemies; has created her own religion (along with its own “21 Commandments of Christian Porn”); claims to maintain an alien hit list, so that when the aliens land she can guide them to the “right” people to exterminate; made threats against herself on a racist/homophobic/misogynistic hate site (proven with her static IP address); and has stated that her secret wish is invisibility so that she could murder the children of her enemies in their homes.
THAT deranged, hateful woman is who Stella/Amy considers a credible, citable source.
Amy wants to play the victim- so she must attack those who call her bluff. She previously told one NSWP member that the reason she wanted to protect her husband’s identity was because of the ex- soviet mafia who was seeking him because he was a defector????… but oddly, her husband posted, on his website with his real name and photo- his CV with the home address, phone, email and every other bit of information that any mafia type would need to find him. As a NASA scientist, that is not a very intelligent thing to do if you are hiding from someone and surely he is NOT a dummy. Except for marrying her, perhaps.
Her hysteria over her identity being revealed is simply because she knows that now we know who she is, she will have a much more difficult time hiding behind her cloak of anonymity while she lies about us. And it is very ironic that she claims that all her BS about us as individuals was “nothing personal” so why would we even care? Well, perhaps it isn’t personal that now we all know who she really is!
Here’s the link to Stella’s post: http://secretlifeofamanhattancallgirl.wordpress.com/2012/07/12/our-bonds-are-just-too-strong-for-you/
She makes numerous untrue claims about her address, phone, etc being posted. The only thing that was posted was the information she posted publicly alongside her Stella Marr pseudonym.
Oh, and as if the bullshit couldn’t pile up any further, there’s now some San Francisco “sex educator” who’s jumped on the Stella Marr bandwagon:
https://twitter.com/NiceGirlsToo/status/223527879466680320
https://twitter.com/NiceGirlsToo/status/223560162835832836
I’ve been kind of distancing myself from the local “sex positive” scene based on what a hotbed of idiotic political correctness it’s becoming, but this just takes it.
Let her keep lying; the posts are there for anyone to see what’s in them.
A lot of activists are dreadfully naive; they think they can hold hands in a circle and sing “Kumbaya” and the bad guys will be overcome by their niceness. The world doesn’t work like that; as Dr. McCoy once said, “I’ve found that evil usually wins unless good is very, very careful.” Niceness doesn’t work unless it is backed up by strength: the iron hand in the velvet glove is effective, but the glove alone just flaps in the breeze. The American gay rights and sex worker rights movements are roughly the same age; why has the former won all its major goals and we haven’t even won a single minor one? Because the gay rights people started to get tough back in the ’80s, while we’re still whining about feminism and feelings.
As for the “sex positive” crowd, Furry Girl has been talking about their absurdities for a while now.
If you look at Stella’s twitter feed right now, she’s apparently trying to “poison the well” with other activists, such as Audacia Ray and Red Umbrella Project, where she thinks she might get a hearing. She tried this with Thierry Schaffauser last week and he wasn’t buying it. And before that with Emi Koyama, who really did give SM plenty of rope to hang herself with:
http://eminism.org/blog/entry/314
There’s this interesting streak of prudishness and general butthurt in the sex-positive crowd. Many of the ones I know, both online and IRL, are becoming as knee-jerk reactionary, narrow-minded, and uncritical as the conservatives they criticize.
Dear Maggie, what are the ways you think the sex worker rights movement should “get tough”? I’m not being sarcastic here. I’m curious about what things you think should be done.
1) We need to unify against people like Farley and her minion Stella (and there are many), calling out their lies and demonstrating their bad faith to all.
2) We need to take a leaf from the gay rights playbook, so that there are CONSEQUENCES to ignoring us. Groups like ACT-UP drew a lot of attention to gay rights via outing, church occupation, etc. Do I think we should all do that? No, it would be counterproductive. But our current inobtrusive methods allow us to be dismissed as cranks, as we’ve been dismissed for 40 years. Most of all, politicians and others who support prohibition but still use our services need to be outed.
3) We need to concentrate on our own specific causes, not the broader causes which affect some of our members but also many non-sex-workers, such as abortion rights, gay rights, trans rights, etc.
This isn’t just about Stella. This is about the people she has slandered, demeaned, degraded, and traumatized by her malicious verbal abuse against sex workers advocating for our human rights. I’m referring to the whole sex workers’ justice movement, not only people she singled out. She basically targeted certain people and used this to discredit all the whole sex workers rights movement (including sex workers who do not even hold management positions), which is especially disgusting considering that there are sex workers rights activists who have been trafficked; and subject to violence, persecution, and hatred for being sex workers.
When anybody slanders people, they give up their right to privacy, so Stella’s right to privacy is no longer the main issue here. As an example of her Slander, she accused Norma Jean of being a pimp when anybody who takes the time to educate themselves about what actually happened would know this had nothing to do with her conviction. In reality, Norma Jean was arrested while working as an escort and writing a book exposing corruption in the Los Angeles Police Department. Slander such as this has the potential to ruin people’s lives, so that’s the bigger issue here, not Stella’s privacy which she gave up the right to by making such slanderous statements. Otherwise, I would totally support her right to privacy. To the people who are sticking up for Stella, how would you feel if she falsely made malicious claims about you that had the potential to traumatize you and ruin your lives? Would you be sticking up for her so much?
Also, Stella keeps acting like people are verbally attacking her for speaking out as a survivor, but that’s not my problem with her and I find it really disgusting how she’s using this issue to draw attention away from her slander, acting like she’s the victim of verbal assaults when she’s perpetrating these, and people have every right to call her out on this and stick up for people being slandered by her. That isn’t bullying her nor is it silencing survivors. I totally support the right of survivors to speak out, but I don’t support maliciously slandering people and using this to wrongfully discredit the whole sex workers’ rights movement. That’s my problem with Stella.
Leave the country for a few weeks and the *hits hits the fan.
Amy P. blogs that she is being stalked, phone calls, Russians after her husband, only problem, it’s all in her mind. She continues to play the victim reposting “Their bonds are too strong.”
I’m getting PTSD from reading (Thank you for your beautiful support)
I know this is a long since dead topic but is this “Stella” under a different name?
Bedelia in the comments of http://therumpus.net/2011/01/why-are-you-a-prostitute/
I don’t believe they’re the same person (though one never knows), but they get their rhetoric from the same moldy can. One difference is that although they both subscribe to the bizarre belief that no working girl ever becomes a madam, Bedelia has an obsession with the “organized crime” myth. She commented here once, and I wrote about her.
The reason I brought this up is its nearly the same story in so far as the time spent being a hooker/call girl in NYC. There was also the accusation of sex worker groups being led by pimps. I just felt like I was listening to kids play telephone but instead of being a fun game it’s peoples lives and livelihoods at stake.
I guess I should have known you would have already covered it. I am trying to get through your archived blogs, but I skip around link hopping. Lesson learned use the search as you have a wealth of info easily accessible.
Link hopping isn’t a bad way, plus there’s the “one year ago today” feature (though I’m only doing those in weekly groups now) and as you said, the index.
I suspect that Bedelia and Stella are cut from the same cloth regarding “pimps”. It’s certainly possible the former could be an earlier sock puppet, but if so she changed a few things in the story; Stella claims to have been a “call girl” (despite the ludicrosity of the idea that a high-end escort would be dominated by “pimps”) and she doesn’t go on and on about “organized crime” in the way Bedelia does. For all we know, Stella may have even studied under Bedelia in prohibitionist sock school.
I happen to think “Amy” has taken up another persona. She is too much of a hothead to let controverse past her by. She’s always looking for a fight.
When an ordinary person lies, the injury to others is confined to a few.
When a person with influence over the masses lies, the injury is to the masses.
While the moral crime is the same, the impact is vastly different.
Marr should be held to the gravest account; her lies have, beyond doubt, injured the rights, safety and freedoms of sex workers and indeed their clients too, worldwide, via her advocacy of the Swedish Model.
Bring back the Birch, my grandma would say. However…
Since it is the court of public opinion in which this … human… works, let that be the means of enacting justice too.
The indefensible must be brought down, held in the light, and be seen by all for what it is.
The wickedness of lies.
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