After the Jill Brenneman interview columns of February 21st–24th, a number of readers had questions which Jill graciously answered in the commentary. But since these were spread chaotically across four days, she asked if they could be gathered together and I thought that was a good idea. I’ve placed the questions and answers in what I feel to be a logical order, editing them for length and punctuation; I’ve also changed the pronouns where needed so the questions are addressed directly to Jill. In a few places I’ve moved sentences for clarity, but the only added words are in brackets. I expect that these two columns will generate still more questions, but please wait until you’ve read tomorrow’s so as to avoid redundancy.
Kaiju0: I am left feeling very confused about how men like this can exist. It is almost unbelievable to me…I have such a difficult time imagining myself or men I know DOING these things to a woman, let alone a teenaged girl. And I know they may have been deceived by Bruce regarding your age and…willingness to participate, but at some level they HAD to question it. They had to know something was wrong.
Jill: There were times when both men and women involved questioned what was happening. But I was presented as…his willing 19-year-old girlfriend, who was a Goth sub. We role-played this until I could handle questions about it without much thought and…he could depend on my answers supporting him. Bruce was very proud of the cover story of meeting a confident…women’s studies student and teaching her “her place”. I upheld the cover story; to do otherwise was a brutal experience afterward, and there were times that he felt I wasn’t convincing enough. He was very proud of what he could do to me, what I would let him do, that he could pass me around to his friends and mostly that he had taken me from college student to slave. Of course, I was never a college student but that was immaterial.
Sometimes [people] probably could tell something wasn’t right…More than once some of the men told him to slow things down because they saw he was hurting me a lot and/or saw that he was so aggressive he was risking killing me. Although, I don’t know that they cared about me as much as they were afraid…he would…make them witnesses. But it is important to understand, I played my role, promising it was ok to keep going, telling people I was ok when I wasn’t, ensuring everyone was aware this was my choice even though it wasn’t. I fought very hard to overcome their objections because to do otherwise was viewed as betrayal.
Asehpe: Did you ever find out what Bruce’s ultimate fate was…or has it become immaterial to you? With experiences such as yours, one would imagine that sooner or later a desire for revenge, or at least justice, would appear. Do you feel a need for something to give it closure?
Jill: Bruce’s current status is immaterial to me, other than I hope he hasn’t harmed anyone else…I don’t want revenge. It wouldn’t give me anything [and] I’m afraid of him anyway [so] the point is moot…He is a large man. There is no physical punishment I could or would want to give to him to equal what he did to me as a teenage girl. They simply aren’t parallel. My only wish is that he not be able to harm anyone else.
There won’t ever be closure; the closest I can come is speaking about what happened to try to protect others. I don’t believe it’s possible to achieve closure with something this devastating…The best revenge would be to prevent the suffering of others. I’d rather have that happen than any harm I could do to him. The only thing I would like would be answers from him. Certainly after the escape attempt I had learned the entire scope of his power; I don’t know why he had to continue to the very last day to be as violent and degrading as he was to me. With the exception of the escape attempt, I did everything he told me to do that was humanly possible. His rule was that I never speak first, never question anything, [and] I never broke that rule. Many times he wanted displays of my willingness to die on command; I gave him those over and over whenever he wanted proof that I understood it was his right to demand that for his varying reasons. I was broken within hours of being in his cellar; he had absolute control. I would like to ask him why he still hurt me so much.
For the record, I’m not trying to present this as a sub thing; it wasn’t inherently that. It was simply that he had that much control because I was not able to do what I wanted to do, [which was to] resist him until he did kill me. The process of being killed was too long and painful…I wasn’t afraid of dying, I was afraid of living.
Maggie: There are a lot of things in sex which are a good fantasy but a terrible reality, and sexual slavery is one. Though Bruce wanted others to think you were a willing submissive who could stop things if you wanted, that clearly was NOT the case and that makes the two things as different as charity and theft.
Jill: You’re right; I had never considered the idea that Bruce sold the events that happened as something I could stop if I wanted. I knew he presented them as something I was willing to do, but it never occurred to me he would have also made it appear that I could have stopped it. People openly commented about my bravery in how far I would go or let them go and about what a great “catch” I was and how truly wonderful it was that he had convinced me to “drop college” for him and [all] that. But I always thought they knew I had no voice in stopping it. But you must be right. It makes far more sense than my thought process.
Kelly James: You must be angry…at least I know I’m angry..angry like if given the opportunity I don’t think I’d have any problem personally flipping the switch on his electric chair kind of angry. How do you deal with the anger?
Jill: I never really found the anger. Bruce’s violence and…that [which] surrounded him through his associates and clients, along with the endless role-plays to make sure I acted the way I was prepared rather than with anything I felt, took an enormous emotional toll. My assumption is that was Bruce’s plan from the outset. I was far too scared and far too emotionally and physically wounded to do much other than what kept him from being more violent. Essentially fear was overwhelming of any other emotion. Freedom never really changed that; while the fear went down over time, I have never really had much anger. Even to this day, therapists and psychiatrists have tried to get me to access my anger to break the cycle of depression and PTSD. I just haven’t ever really found it. Ultimately I probably bought his point that it was destiny and have yet to find a way to move beyond that.
Kelly James: I understand….almost kinda thought you’d say that. I’m sure as hell angry that happened to you and I bet if I told you that what happened to you happened to me, you’d be really angry…It was random chance that…you met Bruce – not your destiny. It could have happened to any one of us…and it’s okay to be angry at the monster who perpetrated it.
Jill: You are entirely correct: If you told me what happened to me, happened to you, I would be really angry. While I’m never a good advocate for myself, I am always a really good advocate for others because then I can find the anger…As bad…as it is that I happened to be the one who ran into him, I honestly feel better with the concept that it was me than anyone else…There was another girl who was involved for a short time; the day she was no longer there was the same day we left for Los Angeles. I don’t know what happened to her; I’ve always hoped that she simply escaped. I can’t accuse him of anything other than making her suffer while she was there like he did me because I don’t know.
Kelly James: Perhaps some self-defense/martial arts classes would give you a way to physically express anger and help you get over your fear.
Jill: You know, I’ve got 2 years of self-defense training. As a flight attendant after 9/11, I found a serious need for it in order to feel safe working flights every day. Although he is such a large man, I’m not sure even what I know and have practiced over and over in…class could overcome the size difference. My fear of him is more about what lengths he would go to in order to get vengeance for me escaping. I’ve always feared his return in my life would come at a time I was with a friend and a lot of thought has gone into how to deal with that so that at least the other person had the ability to get away from him. I would hope self-defense would at least buy some time.
Lindsey: I cannot even imagine what you’ve gone through and I don’t think that I could be that strong. I found your insights into the anti-prostitution movement to be very enlightening because I was never fully aware of the intricacies…This interview brought so much depth to why criminalizing prostitution is a bad thing for everyone…I think the most discomforting part for me was not the graphic details of abuse…but rather the way the anti-prostitution activists pushed aside the sex workers as if their opinions didn’t matter.
Jill: Thank you for the kudos but they are unnecessary. I speak out about the past in hopes of preventing a similar future for someone else. IMO, that doesn’t make me deserving of honor or…reward, it just makes me human and means that I learned something from the violence that I was able to apply to myself to be more of a human being than I would have been otherwise. In some ways it is much better that I experienced what I did; it gave me an understanding of myself that made me stronger and more empathetic.
Sailor Barsoom: So you were speaking out against prostitution…and they still thought you were some evil infiltrator? (The CIA?)
Jill: They still believed I was CIA or “a pro-prostitution” mole…I wasn’t dogmatic enough, didn’t know who the famous people in feminism were and didn’t care. I was never meant to be an anti. I wasn’t a good fit…despite my history. Had I run into the sex worker rights movement first I would have started there anyway; the fit was much better, plus I’ve been free in the movement to be true to myself. I wish I were a CIA mole infiltrating radical feminism; it would be a safe gig with good pay and really good insurance.
To be concluded tomorrow.
Jill,
That photo of you gives me chills. What should be just admired as a beautiful young lady is horrifying to me (in light of your interviews). I worked five years in strip clubs and I wonder how many of the girls I worked with over the years were not there on their own volition. I suspect few.What I wanted to ask you was your openness with your story, and your image. Do you think this animal Bruce would have the intelligence, drive and resources to find you via the internet? There is no more traditional privacy as I grew up knowing it. Obviously you have thought about this. What sustains your enduring bravery?
JJ
Jyllyj, the photo above is not one of Jill; it’s merely one of a “Goth girl” I found to illustrate the way Bruce tried to present her to his clients, as a willing Goth sub. I’m very sorry if I confused anyone! Jill doesn’t have a lot of pictures of herself that she likes, but here is one from her time as a flight attendant:
For whatever it’s worth, I probably did look pretty similar to the goth girl in the picture. Except with different hair. I was goth girl but with Stevie Nicks hair.
Yes, I saw that one as well. I enjoy your column. Been a long time since I have thought about sex worker rights. I have forgotten how big the industry is. I also forgot about how vulnerable. I think I stumbled on your site b/c I have email alerts for my name (a function of security, not vanity). I am glad it happened. Enjoy your writing. I hope that Jill has taken ALL precaution to make sure that sociopath or any of his associates can never retaliate. I spent years helping adoptees and birth relatives unite and I know how easy it is to find people via the internet.
Thanks for your reply and your column.
JJ
You’re welcome, JJ; thank you for the compliments! 🙂
Wow, I’m very glad Jill answered some of the questions I had directly.
Thank you again, Jill for sharing your story, and for you Maggie, for presenting it in this ever enlightening column.
You’re very welcome, Kaiju. 🙂
Kaiju0, thank you for reading it and caring. And thank you to Maggie for taking this project on.
The pic of Jill is a bit blurry, but I can see that she’s cute.
Hi Jill! You’re cute. Maybe beautiful or hot, maybe not, can’t tell for sure. I’m not asking for a better pic or anything, just saying what I noticed.
You were young, and Goths are associated with young people, and as been demonstrated a seemingly-infinite number of times, people will believe anything about young people. If Bruce told peop0le that a young Goth enjoyed everything that was happening to her, far too many people would believe it without question.
I’m real glad you’re out of that.
@jyllyj, I have little doubt that Bruce has the intelligence and drive to find me. I spent many years living in paranoia that he would find me. Something I had to learn to live with was that if he wants to find me he will. I can only control what I do. The rest is out of my hands.
As far as what sustains my bravery. I don’t feel brave. I put my history and occasionally my image out there so that people see humanity in sex workers. It is really more about an internal sense of right and wrong. My hope is that my activism touches someone’s life and somehow makes it better. To me, letting fear stop me from trying to add something positive to someone’s life through my activism is a worse thought than anything he may do if he ever finds me.
I’m going to think about your comments for some time. Very charitable to ‘let it go’. I see the wisdom in it. I just wish it was that easy to apply in my own life =)
@jyllyj, I’m afraid it wasn’t a charitable decision to let go. It isn’t anything that noble. Just resignation on my part that what happens does.
It’s true that oftentimes you can’t undo what has been done. Thing that you’ve done, things that others have, and things that have just happened…
@jyllyj I’ve taken precautions that can be taken. I have a dog that would undoubtedly rip a lot of his leg off if he showed up at my house and tried to harm me. But ultimately, he’s a sociopath. If he wants to badly enough, he will find me and he will likely do whatever he chooses. There is only so much anyone can do to stop someone like that.
I agree about all of that. I admire you for being honest about your life experiences. I also admire your choice to raise awareness of the issues. What are the next steps to continue raising awareness?
Jyllyj, to me the next steps to continue raising awareness is to remain open, to remain authentic, to show the world that sex workers are part of humanity. My goal is always to create networks and create a climate where sex workers who want to become active in raising awareness can join the greater community. In my life, I have never met a group of people I respected more for its humanity, it’s tolerance, its dedication to fighting oppression and it’s warmth than the people I have met in the sex worker rights movement. .
@ Sailor. I don’t know whether I’m beautiful, hot or not. I’ve been described as all three of those more than once. It’s subjective. I’ve got a long history of apathy about people’s feelings of how I look. I dress however I do to match my own sense of how I want to look. Well, other than when wearing stupid flight attendant uniforms that were 20 years out of style when they were issued.
I should have become a flight attendant. I’d get to GO somewhere every now and again.
@Sailor you’re right. You do get to go a lot of places. Although it takes time for them to be good places. The first years the cities often suck.
I would like to add something to this. Bruce, on top of all the obvious evil things he did, also made a mockery of the D/s and BDSM lifestyle.
Those who participate in the lifestyle have a motto: Safe, Sane, and Consensual. This whole thing was anything but.
@ Susan, I totally agree. Bruce was a supreme sadist who found a way to make a lot of money from his sadism. I doubt he could have even cared less about BDSM other than the money angle. You are right, the whole thing was none of the standard safe, sane and consensual.
There is so much more that would further demonstrate how he made a mockery of D/s and BDSM that hasn’t ever been published. Although probably will be eventually. It is a project being worked on.
Although he would have made a huge point to tell you that it was consensual. He would have even had me tell you it was. After being raped and tortured for the weeks of “training” I was more than willing to say it was consensual or anything else he told me to say. I would have said he was Pope John Paul if he told me to.
It goes back to the “good fantasy, bad reality” thing again; things like rape or sexual slavery stimulate a deep part of the female brain just as certain socially undesirable things stimulate deep places in the male brain. We’re all adults here and we’ve all read of people doing things in sex play that we find disgusting or horrible or scary. But as I’ve said before, consent is the magic word which turns mutilation into surgery and being pushed out of an airplane into skydiving.
I think whores have a unique perspective on this; I’m sure every one of us has been kissed by clients whose mouths we don’t want to be anywhere near. Most people would consider a kiss to be a positive thing, but if a man forces it on a woman without her consent it becomes repulsive. The same with Jill; the fact that some women might willingly endure some (though certainly not all, let me tell you) of what she endured, the removal of consent turns it from kinky sex into a nightmare of torture. 🙁
Maggie makes some really awesome points about the difference between consent and non consent. I have to remember the analogies to use for my next speaking events! 🙂
She is also right in saying that some women may willingly endure some of what I endured but not all. I totally agree with that too. What really isn’t well known is that I’ve only gone public with 5 to 10 percent of my history with Bruce. I think anyone would be very hard pressed to find someone who would willingly endure what I did. Even if they did consent to it, there would still be a very significant difference. My experiences started with abduction which alters the dynamic. I had no safe words, no way to protect myself and no idea how long I would have to endure. Even someone consenting to endure what I did would still have what I did not. The chance to end it. And that is a huge difference.
My feeling is that someone willing to endure what I did would change their mind if they knew the whole story. It would even be hard to categorize it sexually. While there was awful brutal rape, that aspect still was no where near the hardest part. Often times the sexual component was more of an afterthought.
If it were truly BDSM, Bruce would have had human sex slave. Using his own words, I was nothing more than three holes that deserved to be in the worst possible pain in any situation.
Thanks, Jill! 🙂
From what you’ve told me so far, I agree that a lot of what Bruce did wasn’t even sexual; it was more like things I’ve read about Muslim extremists doing to captured “infidels”. And that just goes to support my contention that he was a sociopath. 🙁
@Maggie. I think the same basic operating premise existed between what drove Bruce and what drives Muslim extremists to do so much harm to someone they have captured. Extremists look at their prisoners as non human, as something evil that belongs in as much pain as much of the time as possible.
I think sex came into the situation with Bruce as another mechanism to hurt me and to hurt Liz when she was there.
For whatever fxcked up reason I believe he hated women to an extreme. That misogyny how he based his decision on who were infidels. In his case women.
I probably survived where most captives don’t simply because for all of hatred, I was still who was making him a lot of money and wasn’t trying to escape or resist. I would guess that was his basis for keeping me alive. Killing me would have cost him a lot of money until he found someone else.
The neofeminists so often wanted me to tell an audience when I was doing some kind of presentation that the worst thing was how many men I had to have with. That I should phrase it as the sex being the worst part and prostitution being what caused it. Except they were wrong. They wanted me to emphasize how degrading the sex was. But I was so overwhelmed with pain, sensory deprivation, and inconsistencies on whether I would eat, drink, go to the bathroom. I think the neofems figured that despite everything, my first concern should have been dignity, not being degraded by being prostituted. The neofeminists don’t realize we all didn’t have the luxury of applying feminist analysis to situations.
The hardest part was the pain from the torture regardless of what body part it was.
Neofeminist notions about sex are incredibly narcissistic; I’ve noticed that “rape is the worst thing that can happen to a woman” usually means “rape is the worst thing that has ever happened to me“. 🙁
I want to point out that there’s many who tell about their tragedies and AREN’T completely narcissistic about it. Are some? YES! I’ve found this out a few times with other MVS. I’ve noticed they tend to be the 1’s who really don’t want to work on recovery, i.e., take the easy way out and that’s to stay in self-pity, etc. However, have found these are the minority. The majority who repeatedly tell their stories are the opposite. There’s many great things that come from us telling our stories. 1 of the biggest is it inspires others to at least try working on recovery! Yes, I’m speaking of MVS again. 1 reason I do ANYWHERE I get a chance to is to spread the word and also show other groups that are hated they’re not alone. Even though we’re hated for different reasons, we still have a few things in common and those who are hated can support each other also just within THAT part of things. Thanks for listening.
[…] As always, I generally read Maggie McNeill’s blog every day. One that particularly makes me happy and sad at the same time is the story of Jill Brenneman which you can start to read here as a four part series. A follow up Q and A post begins here. […]
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How is jill doing?
I heard not well. Does anybody know more?