The trouble with life isn’t that there is no answer, it’s that there are so many answers. – Ruth Benedict
As usual, we’ll close out the month with a collection to reader questions. If you have one of your own, please email it to me and I may include it in my next column.
Are you not uncomfortable with the word “whore”? I would never call my ladies such a thing! I don’t even like the word “hooker”. It has also acquired such a negative connotation. Like calling a black man a “nigger”. Just wrong. (To me, anyway). I respect the women I am with. Why would I use such nasty words on them?
A number of us have decided to appropriate the word “whore” just as homosexuals took over “queer” and “dyke” and American revolutionaries commandeered “Yankee”. IMHO black people would have been much wiser to have done the same with “nigger”. When one accepts a label it loses its power to hurt; when one avoids it one ends up being like the pathetic wimp in the schoolyard who would run away crying whenever anyone called him “fatty” or “boogers” or whatever. Here’s an early column which touches on the subject.
And beside everything else, I like “whore”. It’s a venerable word with roots going back to the ancient Indo-European language, and is related to the Persian houri, the Arabic hur and the Greek porne (from which our word “pornography” is derived); it may also be related to the Latin hora (hour) because one very ancient euphemism for whore is “lady of the hour”. It’s also honest and specific (though often misused), unlike the legalistic “prostitute” or the vague and overly-broad “sex worker”. I also like “harlot” (which is itself related to “whore”) but nowadays that sounds like an affectation. Of course, these are my personal preferences; other working girls have their own, and some of them definitely don’t like “whore” even when a sister uses it, much less when a man does. So it’s probably best you avoid it unless you know the lady you’re addressing doesn’t mind. As far as I’m concerned, though, allowing words to have power over one’s feelings is like giving everyone who can speak a baseball bat and then daring them to hit one.
You have said that you would consider working again not for money but for donations to a pro-prostitute group. Does that still constitute prostitution as you are not having sex for personal gain? And how much of a donation (pun intended) would you consider for your time?
Prostitution is defined as the exchange of sexual favors for money, but since experienced whores never actually agree to exchange sex for money cops have to resort to lies and trickery in order to arrest women for the “crime”. The result is that in prohibitionist regimes like the United States, no woman is safe from police accusations of prostitution based upon such absurd “evidence” as winking, lack of underwear, the possession of one or more condoms or wearing “revealing” clothes. Legally speaking, I’m not really sure as to whether the law would consider working for donations prostitution or not; the excuse for porn acting being legal is that a third party pays for it, so it stands to reason that if the money were paid to a third party it would be the same. However, I’ll still be extremely careful because there’s nothing to stop a cop from simply lying, just as they can about any woman. As for the amount, I would ask my old rate of $300/hour.
I’ve often wondered about the male “significant others” of sex workers. When a sex worker comes home after having had sex in some form with 5 or more men, how does she work up enough desire to make love with her sweetheart? Also I imagine that these relationships are fragile due to jealousy.
The answer is, “it depends”. That may seem evasive, but people (male and female both) are so different from one another that it’s hard to give you only one answer. First off, five clients in one day is definitely a high number for an escort, though I am told it’s not all that unusual for a brothel girl or streetwalker. In the first two years I was working I averaged 2.3 clients a day, and many independents set a limit of two (or even one) in order to prevent burnout or have more personal time. So for the sake of discussion, let’s just say “two or three” because that fits my own personal experience and is much more realistic for most escorts. Even so, two or three sessions can be rather tiring, especially if the girl specializes in energetic PSE-style performances. And in most cases, it’s the energy which matters rather than “desire”; a professional does not have sex with clients due to lust but because it’s her job, and for many of us the need for real intimacy is increased by work rather than decreased. In other words, for some women the more professional jobs they do in a day the greater the need for emotional bonding with their partners later.
Again, everyone is different. If a whore finds her work sexually satisfying (and some do), she may not be interested in more when she gets home. If she is indifferent to her work and doesn’t wear herself out, there may be no effect on her sex drive one way or the other. If she’s indifferent but is worn out (by number of clients, level of activity or difficult customers) she might be only interested in cuddling or gentle lovemaking. If she’s turned on by her work but not really satisfied, she may be even more randy when she gets home than she would be had she spent the day shopping. And if she dislikes her work, she may not want anything to do with a man when she gets home.
How the man looks at her work is also important; if he only tolerates it he might be turned off if he knows she had a number of appointments that day, but if he’s turned on by it he may be even more excited by that knowledge. His attitude is really the one that determines the answer to your second question; most self-aware men know whether they’re the jealous type or not, and those who are usually avoid entering into relationships with pros. Of course, men who lack the faculty of introspection or who are emotionally troubled may be unaware of their own jealousy or (more likely) fail to recognize that they’re falling in love until it’s too late; wise whores keep their eyes open for danger signs in regulars and hold problem cases at arm’s length because such men can easily become dangerous stalkers. Some escorts also date men nonprofessionally and hide their professional lives from their “regular” dates, but I consider this both dishonest and foolish; it’s better for everyone involved if both parties are honest with both themselves and the other person in order to avoid future emotional turmoil.
In the past, a number of people have expressed curiosity about my own husband’s feelings on the matter, so I asked him if he would consent to answer such questions from my readers and he agreed. So you may consider this an official invitation: any of you who have questions you would like to ask my husband please email them to me and I’ll pass them on to him; his answers will appear in a future column. Please try to be specific; questions such as “what’s it like to be married to a hooker?” are too broad to be easily answered.
I think these and your fictional interlude columns are my favorite. The rest seem to become a too depressing commentary on the state of our society. Of course, it isn’t your fault that our culture is so sexually juvenile but it’s nice to read something that doesn’t make me shake my head.
How would you suggest that society could grow up sexually?
On the other hand, as barstool bon mots go, I’d be hard-pressed to think of a better one.
Hey, I noticed your comment on the “offsite” tab – but it doesn’t allow for commenting so I’ll do it here 🙂
Fidelbogen came up with it, and its very popular among ex-feminists and people who are struggling with what to label to use, because they don’t want to be “ANTI-feminists”, but they don’t want to be feminists either.
That and non-feminist-sector are the two most popular ones that have been invented so far, though yes people still struggle with what to call themselves. Lady Catherine wrote quite a lot on her struggle with what to call herself.
P.S.
If you mind me listing you under “counter-feminists”, let me know of an alternate label if you prefer it. Thanks.
Oh, no, I like “counter-feminist”! Besides being a good description, it reminds me of “counter-espionage”, “counter-clockwise” and other such terms. 🙂
I like the word “whore”. Of course, my brother will say: it’s a meaningless distinction. The word “woman” will suffice. In his opinion, the distinction is so fine it’s a kind of parsimony.
BTW, he loves his wife and respects her much. He married her for her mild harlotry. As he so gently puts it in social situations, if I wanted to marry an ice cube, I’d have bought a fridge. Still, his children (4) are definitely his, so he did something right.
Here’s a question for your husband.
I bandied this about briefly when i was in Korea a month ago. I met my ex and things were going well for her. I was thinking about what it would have been like to have stayed with her and possibly made it permanent (though she and I were incompatible, who knows; anyway, the sex was mind-blowing and never dull; if it lasted, that’s no small compensation for not having similar interests).
Questions:
– Did you approve of your wife’s former career; was your marriage conditional on you being her only partner/”client”?
– (as posed by one guy): Did marrying a self-declared harlot free you from sexual bondage personally? Or were you even interested in this?
– When does jealousy rear its head?
My SO at the moment discovered that she was massively turned on by the notion of me being with another woman (especially an attractive one she liked; it’s an odd situation). It appealed to her profound vanity and to her shock made her hyper-sexual. Call it the “alpha male harem instinct”. I’m pretty sure it’s not a long-term thing, and ironically, I’m not even that interested (I’d be satisfied being satisfied by her).
Brief story: I’m seeing two women, in effect. One is a former lover, one a serious significant other. The SO is tolerant of this because it was an accident, and it (to my extreme surprise) turns her on massively; she also controls the situation.
Effect: The jealousy, instead of making her anxious, titilates her. I’m extremely mindful and judicious about this. Not that I’m afraid of overstepping boundaries, but I know how delicate these things are, and I’d like to keep my SO.
I’m wondering if this is the same for your husband: Is the jealousy transformed? Does he even care?
– Has your husband visited whores before – and is the experience different *for him*? I suspect it’s different all the time, with anyone.
– If the opportunities were good, would he tolerate you working even now?
That’s for him, to start.
I ask these things because I wonder about my ex and I. her fiance right now is hugely into her; he’d fight half the world to protect her, and couldn’t care less what she did in the past. And he;s very alpha: tattoed, moneyed from personal hard work and business brains; and while conservative, also deeply respectful of women (as women). He admires her honesty and pluck.
And he’s so personally confident, he had no trouble meeting me for lunch with her when I was there last year: he was enthusiastic and even friendly. He also never once questioned her about it, she told me: Making her obscenely loyal. He’s away from her for a couple of months at a time, and thinks nothing of it. I ask if he gets around, and she says: Neither of us ask. He’s loyal enough to me, and definitely admires and loves me, and this is all she demands in a man. She sees him as deeply honorable.
I think she has no illusions about men and women, and looks for character above all else. I’ve always thought she was honest.
Anyway, I have no idea what being married to a whore would actually be like. I think, instinctively, this:
Like any women, it depends on the whore.
Gorb, my husband said he doesn’t quite understand what you mean by “Did marrying a self-declared harlot free you from sexual bondage personally? Or were you even interested in this?” Could you try rephrasing it?
I really love reading the comments here. Meanwhile I’m surrounded by kids pretending to be adults who still possess 2000 year old ideas about sex and marriage. Its so wonderful reading the comments by adults! for a change.
I am glad that you answered the question regarding whore. I love the word, but like Hooker better. It’s rebellious in a way that I love. It says to society, regardless of their opinions, I am comfortable embracing my identity. When I embrace the title, I embrace those that also carried the title. I embrace the history.
An early friend of mine in the industry used to say I’d rather be a whore than a slut anyday. At least a whore has a head on her shoulders!
As for the banning of the word, (like nigger) I think it’s preposterous. Banning any word that one finds offensive or limiting its use opens the door to the enemy of free Americans, censorship.
If we ban any word, then we must consider banning all words found to be offensive.
Like Nigger, some are offended, but to others the word evolved to a different definition entirely, meaning both “male” and “friend”. I respect the ideas of those that posed to ban its use, but still insist that all words are protected by the first amendment, as well they should be.
My feeling is, if you do not like the word whore, perhaps you should either not be one, or read some of Maggies archives. Learn your heritage, and be proud. We are a proud species.
Dear Kelly, “At least a whore has a head on her shoulders!”-am wondering what all is meant by this? I have a feeling it isn’t anything good.
Don’t take it personally Laura. Whores and sluts basically, physically (perhaps mentally) are doing the exact same thing. Whores get paid, sluts don’t. I used to be a slut, doing what I wanted to do, until I realized that I could get paid for what I had been doing for free.
Pussy got bank in her wallet, before she got dick in her drawers…
Girl, you got pussy control. (Aaaaaaaaaaah, puuuuussy contrAWL!)
Never mind me. I haven’t had any coffee yet, so bugger being sane.
It means pretty much that as a novice whore, I may have questioned what I was doing. Took alot of heat from many sources. My friend that was like a mentor made that statement, and it hit home for me. It made me feel comfortable in my own skin, and with what I was doing.
A whore having a head on her shoulders refers to the fact that I profit from my slutty escapades. If I am a painter, which I happen to be, I can paint for free, or paint for commission. Either way, I still enjoy painting.
I just completed a mural actually. Got paid of course. Could have done it for free, but, why? Having a head on your shoulders means that you are about advancing your position in life. That is the way that I look at it. I could paint for free or fuck for free, but how would it advance my position?
By all means, fuck everybody you like for free, it certainly will do nothing but make the point that women are able to engage in promiscuity, and make it more difficult to deny that we should have the opportunity to do the same even when we are compensated.
Why so defensive Laura?
Do you feel that every woman should fuck for free because that is what you choose to do?
I hang out with a bunch of hookers at my local church.
We crochet booties for babies and cloths and dishtowels to sell at the bazaar. The average age is about 75, and I personally find it hysterical how the ladies titter whenever anyone refers to herself as a “hooker”. It brings out the rebel in their little hearts, and 75 be damned!
We’re planning on going to a hooking convention to learn new techniques. It’s fun to tell people that.
So I vote for hooker, too.
Although I think whore is very regal. I like the sound of it.
Bob Hope wrote a book called Confessions of a Hooker. It was about golf.
The term “Hooker” apparently got coined when during the American Civil War, General Hooker sanctioned prostitutes as camp followers or made arrangements for such. The prostitutes became known as “Hooker’s Girls”… and then later the term got shortened to just “Hooker”. I don’t like the term because “hooker” seems to imply some form of addiction, ie. being hooked onto something. Neither do I like “whore” being its an offensive word thrown about. “Harlot” however… seems a prettier word… it rhymes with Charlotte.
“It’s rebellious in a way that I love.” Probably the same reason I could care less if a person calls me a whore. It’s a word, sticks and stones and all that…. It only hurts me if I let it.
I have a question for Maggie…or for any of the whores here…how big is the biggest cock you’ve seen? I don’t know why it’s occurred to me ask this. I think it’s because I was surfing porn the other day and watched this black guy called “Mandingo” banging a woman. His cock looked like it must be at least a foot long. I noticed that he never went balls deep in her, too. But Dear God it looked like he was scoping her insides.
*this post is not intended to be disrespectful so if you decline to answer I understand.
As it turns out, Tim, I already answered that one on September 8th, but the other ladies are welcome to answer as well. 🙂
I look at the size of the monster and ask “You think you are going to put that where????”
OOOhhh… me me me!
lol, okay…. I am going to reply as to girth…. As there was no tape measure handy, I must say that his thirteen inches or so was so wide, that regrettably, it could not fit in my mouth. literally. Could not fit. (there, or anywhere else)
Sad thing for him, as sex is often impossible he said.
Be careful what you wish for boys, a huge cock is not enviable, unless you care to never achieve full penetration, or anything more than a “lick job”.
Was that too graphic?
Oh, also, about porn. Here is my opinion. I think that having seen so many men naked, abnormal hugeness is so rare. I believe that prostheses are used in porn.
Why? Well, lonely guy buys porn. Sees all these monster huge guys, and it makes him so insecure, that he is less likely to approach real women, feeling such a complex about his average size, so what does he do? Buys more porn.
I had an amazing session today with a guy that was about five inches…. I am still smiling. Guys that know how to explore a womans body with care will be able to please her just by feeling his way. It doesn’t have to be huge, or machine gunish. Just sensitive enough to feel his ladies response. IMHO.
I nicknamed a friend of mine “2-inch Frank”, about the size of a AA battery I swear. GOOD GOD but that man had a tongue that MORE than made up for the size of Mr. Willy!
There’s a very sensible reason for long dicks in porn. It’s got damn all to do with sexual motivation, and it’s obvious if you think about it.
If you use a guy with an average penis length (6″ iirc) then there’s very little cinematographic scope for getting a good camera angle on the actual penetration itself (which the male gaze is psychsexually motivated to see).
Which is, like, physics, innit. Apologies for mythbusting 🙂 😈
This is why almost every woman in porn (and every full-nude stripper) has a bare beaver: nothing to obscure the view.
Heh. Heh. I read your September 8 post, Maggie. Brilliant. Sadly, I’ve got the downward curve, though. I guess that spoils our romance. 🙁
On a similar topic, I was on a blog about circumcision recently, and I stated that I was in favor of it because I had it and there was no trauma associated with it. But also, I actually think it looks more aesthetic than an uncircumcised cock. Were most men you saw cut or uncut? Which look do you prefer?
Thoughts?
*this is a touchy subject I found with men, so dudes, don’t take this stuff too personally.
Most American men are circumcised, and like most women I prefer them that way. In fact, every methodologically sound study which has ever been done shows that in every culture, women who have been exposed to both prefer circumcised. Anti-circumcision activists claim that it’s cultural, but it is not; the vast majority of women who report that they prefer uncircumcised also report that they’ve never had sex with a circumcised man, and what’s even more interesting is that those who report preferring uncircumcised also strongly tend to report that they dislike performing fellatio.
You’re right about it being a touchy subject, though; I’ve noticed that though most men are happy with whatever it is they’ve got, a small percentage of circumcised guys piss and moan about some imaginary lost sexual utopia they could’ve enjoyed had they not been “mutilated”, while an equally small percentage of uncircumcised guys get very defensive about most women preferring circumcised penises (and end up sounding very much like fat chicks whining about most men preferring shapely women).
I have four major objections to circumcision
1. If forces an elective medical procedure on to someone who cant give any sort of consent, let alone informed consent
2. It isnt medically nessecary – noone would dream of suggesting infant appedectimes, tonsilectimes, or drilling into infant jaw bones to root out wisdom teeth
3. Complications are more common then most people think
4. Money, biomedical companies, and beauty product companies make tons of money off of foreskins, non of which goes to the person, or his family who it was taken from
Actually, the attitude is changing about it not being “medically necessary”; look at that second linked article.
The problm with the article linked is it only gives raw figures, it cant interwiew the boys who have the various infections and find out whether or not the regulalry wash their dicks properly.
And the definition of phimosis is badly undrerstood even by doctors. The foreskin isnt meant to retract fully until puberty – which in some males can last until 25yrs of age. They way they remove foreskin in infans is to scrape a tool along the surface of the glans to rip the skin free.
And if the catholic church werent telling people in africa that condomes cause aids more condems would be used and then the STI debate would be moot
And I persoally love the cancer statisitc. 1 in 600. 1 in 12 women will get breast cancer. That is nearly a 5,000% higher rate, yet no one suggests preventitve neonatal masectomies.
Well, there is a bit of a difference there, love. 😉
I have no problem with circumcision as a concept. But I firmly believe every man has the right to choose it for himself. Therefore, I have a big fucking problem with hacking the foreskin off a four day old infant, usually without anasthetic.
Google it. Watch it being done. You will fucking vomit.
This is cruelty of the utmost kind. It’s torturing an infant, pure and simple. I personally think women who allow this to be done to their baby boys need their heads slammed in a door.
Totally enrages me.
And I wonder how many men would book that appointment with the doctor at 18 to have part of their cock sliced off? Yeah. Not very many.
You bet it’s a touchy subject! Not too sure how well male preference would be accepted as a justification for female genital mutilation! (as it is in many parts of Africa).
Ah, but then you don’t have kids right? It’s all about how adult men look to you, not whether your little son is going to have a blade taken to him.
Oh, good grief, not this again. I’ve had “a blade taken to me” three times to make myself more attractive to men, so you’re going to have to find a different tree to bark up.
Huh. I’d say that fellatio would more interesting uncircumcised. More nooks and crannies to get your tongue into. But I guess that’s just me.
Most of my clientele were older white businessmen, relevant keyword to this topic being “white” it meant my clients were circumcised.
In my personal life, I haven’t seen a circumcised dick since 2007.
Although, to be perfectly frank, that’s as much luck as anything else. It’s not as if I do dick-checks before the third date.
A question for your husband: Have you always had respect for the working girls, or is this something Maggie gave you? Or to put it another way — before you met Maggie, could you have imagined being married to a hooker?
@Kelly,
This is what i thought: Whores often quite enjoy their jobs, and often don’t. But they often do. I was told it can be interesting by the only one I ever knew.
She did have lots of stories.
Stories indeed. Its like anything else, some days you like your job, and some days there is a bad day at work. But the bad days don’t make you quit, and they don’t make me quit either. They are not often, not unmanageable for the most part. Yes, some whores bad days at work end in death, but so do some truck drivers, cops, fishermen, geez, just about anything that you can think of! Women are hurt for many reasons, many of them are not whores.
I am just saying, I am a big girl. I can decide what I want to do with my life, and I can carefully assess all of the pros and cons to make my decision. It is sad that most of my “cons” come from those that pose as “rescuing whores” when they are really making things worse for whores.
@gorbachev Having known only one whore, may I ask, since finding Maggie’s blog, how has it affected your outlook not only on the industry, but on the individuals involved? Has it changed your views, or anything that you find noteable? I like reading your posts.
Truck drivers, yes. My paternal grandfather. And of course, soldiers, but we knew that. My dad. I was surprised to learn that more truck drivers are killed on the job than stunt men.
If there were a sudden rash of truck drivers or stunt men getting killed on the job, there would be a demand for safer working conditions. How about some safer working conditions for hookers? The way to do that is to stop chasing them into the shadows with prohibition.
If there were a big uptick in the number of soldiers getting killed on the job, there would be loud cries for ending the war. How about ending the War on Whores?
LOL, this is exactly what I wrote about today on my blog. Come to find out though that the occupation of fisherman is more dangerous than truck drivers. However my last paragraph is the same in context as what you just wrote.
@Kelly,
I dated the whore I knew. Here’s how it went.
– We met through an events agency. She was the 24-year-old, extremely (extremely) attractive social co-ordinator. The event went swimmingly, and I, being an inveterate lothario who was in a rutting phase, attempted to pick her up. She seemed extremely flirtatious and almost kittenish – openly sexual in a typically not obvious Korean way. Anyway, we were busy. Anyway, we met a few times, and then the conversation got around to how shocked I was at the number of love hotels and the seediness of the sex industry. She took umbrage. We got to talking. We met for dinner and by 3:00 am, we were still at it. It was very heated. She told me about her life (not much at first). I was shocked. Nice girl, very smart, extremely social, so profoundly fuckable I thought I’d die of a sexual embolism. But it was her brain that snagged my *real* interest: she was direct and honest. Unlike other Koreans.
So she blasted my view of “sex workers” (I was unclear how deep she was into it). But it turns out:
– She started as a 20-year-old as a karaoke girl; letting dudes fondle her while they got drunk. It’s more or less an institution in Korea. Her places were a little more upscale. She made more there than in the local Happy Mart or selling stuff or promoing with a megaphone in Myungdong. She needed money. She was ambitious. She thought: Fuck the world (she came from nothing), I plan to do well. She wasn’t academic but was shockingly pretty (finest ass I’ve ever seen). So she got sucked in. She went from that to experimenting with the less disagreeable customers, going “upstairs”, and went nuts for the incredible amount of cash she got – in one weekend, she could make as much as most women made in a month. It was the poison that was impossible to resist.
No drugs in Korea – hard to come by. She didn’t smoke but loved drinking – she’s Korean, they drink like fish.
She became known for being classy and her customers thought she was the bomb: sexy and charming. And smart. She could talk with anyone, in proper hidden tones, formally, informally, and she had a MASSIVE EQ.
Really, her math-spatial IQ might have been normal, but her EQ was off the charts. She could ingratiate herself on anyone. It wasn’t just the fact that she was scorchingly hot and knew how to sell everything without seeming like she was selling anything.
So, when I found out, the dick went limp: NO WAY was I going to bed with a whore. So the sexual tension was shelved. That said, I was as surprised as anyone when I found it awesome to hang out with her (and from time to time, her friends – I never, ever asked them about how they associated with her. She had a normal life outside her job, a real job with a real company from time to time, and friends from them all; the “dodgy” friends were also charming and tarty- the kind of girls a guy sees and says, right, you’re fun, let’s get drunk and go out. Not all of them were like that, so I think she had pretty wide social circles).
So we hung out for something like 3-4 months. We used her company a few times and I worked through her. I’d joke privately with her about her weekend profession.
Later, I realized, all through this, she was sweet on me. I was, in the vast range of dudes around her, and there were literally dozens (Including her boss, who in retrospect she may have gone to bed with on occasion – he was a seriously Alpha-Korean kind of guy and I’m certain he had tons of women).
And one night, we went out drinking, argued, she was going to storm off, and we argued some more – and then we decided to spend the night in a hotel due to inclement weather. It was innocent. We were also semi-drunk. One thing led to another and lo and behold, we spent 3 days together.
We dated for 4-5 months after that. I wasn’t monogamous – like I said, rutting phase, and it was a little nuts (though less so than before I met her; the first year in Korea was a madhouse, me after my divorce, I was a rock star -I literally slept my way through the year. Yet I was okay, but she was a whore – I saw the irony at the time, too).
MY REACTION:
At first, I thought: Dude, you’re fucking a whore. It felt wrong on several levels.
1) She fucks men for money. It seemed dirty, as if she’d been tainted. But some hot chick at work, that was fine.
So I thought of her as the “hot chick from work”.
In fact, I was, by this time, a pretty close friend; I knew about her life, and she and I were able to be honest with each other the way people aren’t over there.
But I never shook the shame/dirtiness out of me.
2) You have an ocean of hot tail here. WTF are you banging this whore for? At which I recoiled from myself: By this time, I both respected and liked her as a human being. She was “Mina” – not some nameless personm whore or otherwise.
3) She was absurdly good at sex. Also, nothing like what I thought. I assumed it would be all technical or etc. – that she’d be acting. She didn’t seem to be, though you never know. But she seemed very genuinely into me.
But I had never, to that point in my life, been as proficiently and thoroughly pleasured by a woman, and never, to my knowledge, had any woman responded as well to me. That said, she later told me she was an easy lay (hah): meaning, she loved sex and almost always enjoyed it. BUT
– it was also extremely intimate. She’s sleep curled into me like a baby, and when I tried to move, she’d grab my arms or hand and not let me go to the restroom.
I woke up once, and she’d been awake for some period of time; she was just there in bed, looking at me, waiting for me to wake up, thinking, studying. She had a 3-4 conversations already lined up to have.
What followed was what shocked me.
The relationship was ABSOLUTELY THE SAME AS WITH ANY WOMAN. There were some differences, but as far as relating to each other, it was EXACTLY the same.
This is what I experienced:
– Arguments.
– Ego clashes.
– Anger at broken appointments (a big deal in Korea, a huge deal for her, because her time was genuinely hard to come by; if I broke a weekend appointment for whatever reason, she was apoplectic).
Continued in next comment.
@Kelly,
Continued:
So we dated for a while, and eventually I wasn’t really seeing anyone else.
She started walking arm-in-arm with me in public; she expected me to see her on specific days; she called me much of the time (though I suspect she was “occupied” some of that time).
She then started telling me stories about different times she spent with people. She’s tell me about X politician (never any names: The girl had class, and told me nothing I could use; I was in journalism, after all. Class, that one). She’d go into details and then ask if I was into something and attempt it. \
One thing that bothered me: She knew how to keep a man happy. We had sex when I wanted to. Even when she didn’t seem that into it, she’d get very enthusiastic and enjoy herself, at least enough. Sometimes, she just made sure I was happy. If I turned to her and got horny, she was always game. And she was incredibly creative. And she didn’t rush me.
I thought: is she doing this because she feels obliged? It was convenient, but I also liked her. I think it was partly these things:
– She interacted this way with men.
– She liked to make people she liked happy. Cooking or fucking, both good. If she liked you, she was a people-pleaser. Generally. Not that she’d fuck anyone.
– It really, really wasn’t a big deal for her. Sex was a normal part of her life.
– She liked sex, generally, and one thing she said to me–
Mostly, there isn’t any really bad sex. Sometimes, sure. Mostly, no. And when it’s good, it’s awesome. So she was very comfortable with herself. This was not a girl who felt weird about her own pussy.
Also, she more or less trained me. By the end of 3 months, I was a very appropriate lover for her. She could be pretty rough. It was an introduction to some pretty dominant sex, both ways. At one point, I offended her in bed (unrelated to her job). She slapped me across the face hard (Korean women), punched me in the chest hard enough to leave a bruise for a week, and then came the angry sex. I’m not sure if she raped me and then I raped her. She was one complex girl. Nothing with her was simple. She was always surprising. One of the reasons I loved hanging out with her – before we were seeing each other and during.
She liked it also because –
I was happy to sit and talk with her (IN PUBLIC, no less);
I never tried to ingratiate myself with her, and was always straightforward; I’d call her “gisaeng” to her face (Korean equivalent of Geisha, but less honorific). We had brutal sarcasm with each other. She was always insulting me in a come here-go away kind- of way, like an endless shit-test. I resisted with haughty sarcasm – which she loved. It was never simple, and if she was volatile, it was never boring.
I’d arrange for us to sit in and just watch movies. That was one of her favorite things.
So she said at one point: I don’t act with you; with you, I’m me.
A parallel is the whore in “LA Confidential” who’s sleeping with the cop: The cop is conflicted (for different reasons), but she says something similar in Korean, though it was more poetic at the time:
When I’m with anyone else, (sex or out to dinner, it was about 50-50), I’m who they need me to be. When we’re together, you treat me as me. You get the part that matters.
Then, it became clear I wasn’t just a friend she loved to hang out with and has sex with, a companion – she was really into me. The giveaway were the emotional outbursts that had no apparent reasonable cause or explanation. And I didn’t just enable it – the same was true for me. I genuinely liked and respected her.
But my brain said: Fuck buddy and awesome girl. Her job, I could never get over that. Ever. I told NO ONE, but a few guys I knew. They thought: Lucky guy, gets to fuck a hot whore for free, must be awesome.
What was interesting was that I found their attitudes repulsive, but I was hypocritical myself.
The last few weeks were so hopelessly sad, it’s hard to think about. About a thousand unspoken conversations.
The truth is it still makes me sad, in a way. It was inevitable, but that had nothing to do with her being a whore. Actually, her money was really impressive – at 24, she owned an apartment (you can’t know how huge that is there), and within 2 years she had another. She lived in neither: The smart-assed little girl had two investment properties, I had none. She put down a full chonsae (deposit) on a modest apartment in a decent neighborhood; you get no interest, but pay no rent and the owner invests the money; when you move out you get the cash back. She made more in 3 years than I did in 9.
She paid for *everything*. When I paid, she ignored it; when we traveled within Korea a few times, she basically paid the entire bill. She was adamant about this.
I suspect she was distinguishing me from other men very aggressively, in an attempt to make me more comfortable. She did that sort of thing a lot.
I can honestly say this:
She was the among the most honest and straightforward humans I’ve ever met. In retrospect, she’ll make a great companion and wife. One thing: I know her Fiance must be a well-serviced guy. At 28 (?), she’s still hotter than most women and I can’t imagine he’s less happy than I was. A lot of guys would basically give up a testicle for a woman like her. There’s no loss to him: He’s getting a whore for a wife, but this is one dude who’s going to get his money’s worth and more. And he has money, but nothing he didn’t work like a crazy idiot for; he made it in an industry that eats people up, and it’s not some pathetic unreal industry: His company actually makes shit and sells it, practical stuff, things that you can say: We did this. How she finds guys like this I don’t know. I have no idea how they met.
So there you go – all the salient details. “Courtesan” would be a good word for her.
I realized: I could have taken her to bed the third time I met her. That I didn’t maybe endeared me to her, or maybe not. Who knows. That she fell in love with me; that I loved her, as a human and a person, but despite myself, as a woman, too. Otherwise I wouldn’t still feel guilt. The guilt:
A few years later, I met her, and she introduced me to her fiance (Australian, tall, tattoos, gruff, but like her, a diamond despite anything: Direct, genuine, hard but steel-blade smart, a “working class guy” who made it by dint of personality and hard-assed genuineness; a guy whose employees apparently love him, and who is resolutely fair, the kind of guy you might wonder – hey, is he educated? But then trust with your cash, and trust to make your cash more cash without being a dishonest bastard: despite his lowly background, character like investment bankers can’t dream of. I liked him instantly. Also charming and good handshake. Unpretentious. Actually, as you can tell, I was more than a bit jealous. Some Koreans might dismiss him, but he was a true mensch, and while not traditionally handsome, he had that thing going – he had major presence.)
SUMMARY
So this is what *I* learned about women, and whores. And what changed my attitudes.
– Whores are women.
– Most women are the same. They fuck around for other things, if not money. Often it’s the same thing.
– She was open and honest. This was possible because she needed to be. It made her decent. Most women will tart it up in the right circumstances: At least with a whore, you know she’s been around, if she’d cheat, why would she? She’s with you for a reason: If you sucked in bed, she wouldn’t be with you, and she knows the consequences. She genuinely likes you, for sure.
– Whores likely run the gamut: Troubled, weird, flawed women; drug-addled monsters; victims; powerful and independent – EXACTLY like anyone else
– Society is more hypocritical than I thought, even. A college skank who fucks everything with a dick is fine, celebrated, she can even publish her pathetic adventures for everyone to see, or have them spilled for her. If she rides all the top guys and brags about it as Girrrrrl power, good for her. But some woman who makes a profit at doing the same thing? No way! Whore!
As Mina said, that just makes the skank stupid. I see her point.
– Whore have the advantage of being spectacular lovers. Now, I only have the one to compare to, but she was pretty damned hot in bed. I was never, ever bored, and we had a lot of sex.
I still won’t pay for sex (though I’d do it under certain circumstances: Research for work, hell, I’ve done crazy shit including jumping out of planes and climbing sheer cliffs for work, going down in submersibles that look like death traps – whatever. Having sex with one more woman isn’t a big deal. This is no idle comment. Might happen one day. I once said I’d never skydive: Unless someone’s paying you to film people skydiving, that is.).
But I’m a civil libertarian, anyway. A nationalist one maybe. if some guy wants to pay for sex – I can totally see the argument. Good for you if you can get what you want.
I think whores are people, too. Mina deserved respect as a human being. She deserved better, even from me. I’m very happy for her, now, I smile when I think of her finding what she wanted in life.
And I think:
The difference between full-on whores and normal women is a matter of degree. And finally–
This means that human sexuality and facile morality have no connection. We use sex as a language.
You can use food to survive. You can use food to feed others. You can enjoy food as a gourmet; you can enjoy food for its own sake. It’s social. It can be personal.
Sexuality is a language people use to communicate. Sometimes you want poetry; sometimes you want a shopping list; sometimes you want a cheap novel; sometimes you want shakespeare.
Sometimes a man wants to bend a girl over and have his way or make her tremble. Sometimes you want power: You want to feel her shuddering for minute after minute under your hands, to make her scream in joy and revel in it. Sometimes you want to feel the power to do that to a woman coursing through you. Sometimes you want her to fill you up with eros, and make your skin tingle. Sometimes you want to sit and touch each other and spend a night in familiarity and joy. Sometimes you’re frustrated and need to fuck to feel alive after a hard day.
I have no idea what women get up to in their heads, but I can guess. My SO loves the feeling of being filled and overwhelmed and powerless yet safe: at my mercy, but with me hopelessly enthralled to her. She craves that titilation of feminine power over me, and she knows exactly how to use it.
Sexuality is everything and nothing. It focuses us and distracts us. It serves a dozen contradictory functions.
It’s not just because I think civil liberties are important that I think people should let people do what they want.
I think human sexuality is far too personal, far too universal, and far too important to people to let others intrude.
If people aren’t being hurt, or desire something (even being hurt – not my scene, but whatever) – then leave them the hell alone.
In the end, we all die. People are what count. Stop harassing them.
Let us be.
A college skank who fucks everything with a dick is fine, celebrated, she can even publish her pathetic adventures for everyone to see, or have them spilled for her. If she rides all the top guys and brags about it as Girrrrrl power, good for her.-It’s hilarious to me you’re always downing the “college sluts” (the horror…eyeroll), but then say OTHERS down the prostitutes. You’re constantly downing these college women. So that’s OK, but downing the prostitutes isn’t? Wondering why are their adventures “pathetic”? An FYI: those of us who practice our own form of “free love” (how horrible and DUMB…gasp!…eyeroll) get ###*** also. An example I found not long ago: reading reviews of a book by a famous groupie (who I think is wonderful and goes AGAINST the evil world system in many ways) and the ###*** in the reviews on how the groupies in the book have “NO morals”, “no self-esteem”, are “dirty”, “stupid”, etc., etc. Isn’t that WONDERFUL? I’ve come out as a “wild woman” and have already gotten some ###***. Not as much as I could, but some. I expected it. You really think that those of us who practice a form of FREE (free…the horror!) love are always celebrated? What a JOKE! It’s the OPPOSITE at least some of the time. But, that seems to be OK with you. I need to go now…I need to get to the nearest college campus with my loose morals and grope all the men I can and then tell everyone about it, write about it, etc.
@ Laura
Laura, the difference is that a “wild woman” is not persecuted and jailed.
Wild women, while not always, are typically celebrated and accepted by society, though whores are not.
I for one, am not saying that someone that enjoys free love is anything negative. I am however saying the same thing that I say about alcohol and marijuana.
I can drink Jack Daniels easily, at any bar as I travel until I can’t walk home, until I am sick, until I cannot remember the night before, and this is not only legal, but even common in America.
Yet, I cannot smoke a joint to relax. I have drank and smoked, and in my experience, I have never blacked out from smoking, I have never gotten sick, or lost my capacity to think. To me, smoking is at the very least equal to alcohol in harm, yet one is legal the other isn’t.
Free sex is equally as harmless as paid sex. Yet one is legal, the other is not.
A girl can fuck whoever she wants, for whatever reasons she wants, with whatever consequences involved. A man can feed her drinks until she is so drunk that she consents to sex in some cases, but cannot feed her cash until she consents. Why?
I think Groupies are admirable as well. I also think that they have an agenda.
I think that “wild women” also have an agenda.
Each woman creates her own agenda. She decides when and with whom she will have sex.
I am not saying whores are better than wild women, I am saying that they are equal to Wild Women, and should have the same freedoms as wild women.
I am saying I embrace the word whore, because it applies to me. Whereas I do not embrace the word slut, because it really doesn’t apply to me.
At the end of the day, you may feel great about free love you experienced, but not only will I feel great about paid love that I have experienced, I will be feeling great about the things that I am able to do because the gentleman appreciated me. He showed me that when he paid me. My choice is to get paid. Yours may not be.
Why should you get a choice and I shouldn’t?
I like the money for many reasons. It keeps boundaries, it is a huge ego boost, it makes my life more enjoyable.
I do not enjoy sleeping around with men that do not show their appreciation. Am I wrong for that?
Sometimes it happens, I do not rule it out, but it is not my preference.
Why?
Because I cum whether or not they pay, its good both ways, so why not take a nice deposit to the bank after? What harm? Oh, thats right, because a lot of whore haters are going to try to lock me up if I let a gentleman provide me with cash.
It is instinctual, cave men brought women their prized possessions that were hard earned, like meat.
Now individuals work hard to earn cash. If they choose to present cash to their prospective “mate” why is this wrong? They hunted that cash and banked it, like a caveman could hunt a bear and butcher it for her. Why is it wrong for a man to give me something so important to him, when I am giving him something so important to me?
Questions if you should care to answer, and please note that I do respect your individuality, and choices that you make, but am interested to know where the difference is in your mind. I may be wrong, but I almost feel like you do in some way identify with whores.
Have you chosen not to accept payment for sex?
Have you completely ruled out an “indecent proposal?
Do you ever have a “bad day” being a wild woman? ie mistreatment, or some of the things that the whore haters say our clients do because they pay? Ever been hurt? Dangerous or close call?
Please do not take this as an offensive statement, I am really interested in knowing what a wild woman experiences, as opposed to what I experience as a whore. I am happy to answer anything in return…
Dear Kelly, I agree that I’ve never been under the threat of being arrested. You’re completely right on this. I’ve pointed out on here repeatedly that I’m personally against prostitution (it isn’t for me and never will be), but I’m for decriminalization and have been for years. It’s 1 of the many reasons I came here: to show that you can NOT want any part of something, but do want it decriminalized. I feel the same way about drugs as I do prostitution and want drugs decriminalized also. I used to be for the US Drug War. Thank God for Congressman Ron Paul because he had a big part of getting me OUT of being for the War. Paul has also been for decriminalizing prostitution for years while being against it for himself (like I am). You’re right that in at least 1 way I identify with prostitutes. The wild women (like me) are also a minority group (minority in that our #’s are small) that are persecuted by some. The persecution of prostitutes comes in big part from the laws against it. But, 1 form of persecution we both have from some is the stuff said about us: we’re full of STD’s; we have NO morals in ANY parts of our lives; we’re homewreckers; we have sex with anyone at any time; we’re on drugs all the time or drunk all the time; we’re literally dirty; we have no self-esteem. There’s more examples I could give, unfortunately, but am only giving these because of time constraints. I’ll answer your other questions when I can and THANK YOU for asking them instead of just ASS-uming about me and why I do things the way I do in the sexual area.
Just wanted to say I didn’t forget about those who have asked me about my experiences being a “wild woman”. I’ll answer you when I can and will be glad to answer. It’s great to be ASKED directly about why I do things the way I do instead of being ASS-umed about! There’s so much ASS-uming the worst about people, whole groups of people, etc., that it’s great to see when it’s NOT happening! I’ll be taking some vacation time soon and will also catch up on replying to other older posts as I can.
WOW!!! That’s a bit like what I’m going through. Thanks for the story… but what happened? Did you dump her?
@Kelly,
and on good notes:
Whores serve a hugely critical function. I think there are some good roles for professional sex workers that our culture should sanction:
– Women could introduce young boys to sex. I’ve heard this from many women: Half the men I’m with have no idea what to do with a woman.
It would do a massive service to future wives and hopelessly horny boys to get some basic training. Occasional blowjobs in the back of the highschool basketball court don’t cut it. All those fumbly moments when you’re 17.
– Same goes for men and girls, OR whores and girls. Imagine “houses” where girls were taught not just how to have sex – but to have some respect for it. Its power. Their power. How not to spend it or throw it away.
– Create an outlet for frustrated men, and formalize it. Korea gets as close to this as possible, without making it legal: It’s socially normal. I’d say it saves countless marriages. As Mina said, she’s entertained men who might otherwise have found lovers. She was no threat to a family. A lover is.
My impressions:
I no longer find prostitution disgusting.
But the education had to overcome a lot of stubbornness.
being with Mina changed how I fundamentally view sex.
I used to view it as a release, a sport, a game, an itch to scratch. Okay, it’s still that.
But I also see it as oddly MORE “sacred/spiritual” in a way that I did before:
I took it off its pedestal. That said, it also made it more real and more visceral and I could relate to my own sexuality more actively.
MY SO gets turned on seeing me with another woman – fine. She wants to control it all – also fine. I manage it but it’s not like it’s punishment for me (hah). People are weird. I like her for her. I don’t need to take advantage. But I’m going to enjoy it if I can.
People have all kinds of weirdness in them. Once you accept that the world is bizarre, it makes so much more sense.
Whores are also pretty interesting people.
An FYI, when I saw others for sex only friendships, I was NEVER a threat to any other relationship they had. But, aren’t lovers always a threat? RIGHT! I NEVER was. I’m not alone in this either. In fact, I purposely put in my ads NO married men. But, I thought we “skanks” are DUMB, have NO morals in any areas of our lives (those horrible college sluts with loose morals…gasp!), full of STD’s (I’ve never had 1…HHMM), etc., etc. The “wild women” (like me…the horror) we also serve at least 1 function: giving sex (giving…the horror!) to men who can’t afford prostitutes. This was/is 1 of the reasons I’ve done things the way I have. I’m proud of it and always will be. Sailor Barsoom and I have talked about how it would be wonderful to have an organization that gives sex away to frustrated men. I’d volunteer. I’d keep my standards on who I’d see (but I thought we skanks have NO standards…HHMM), but would give some time apart from my regular job.
Calmeth thine ass down, Laura. Read what he wrote again, and forget that it’s Gorbachev who’s saying it. I know that he’s ticked you off before (and I can’t say as I blame you), but is THIS STATEMENT, on its own, anything you have a problem with?
OK, now as to whether or not either whores or sluts (to use the vernacular) are a threat to a marriage: either of them will be if the wife has a problem with it and the husband does it anyway. You, Laura, will be a potential home-wrecker if the guy you meet through an ad simply lies to you, and to his wife. Yes, I know that it isn’t your fault if he lies, but still, to say you WOULD NEVER be a problem is too optimistic (and you know that I favor optimism).
As for the organization that would give away sex: yes, in the same way that Homes for Humanity provides shelter to the homeless. But the fact that HfH is doing great work and deserves great praise for doing it should take nothing away from carpenters who sell their time to build houses (like many of the guys swinging hammers for HfH projects, or like Jesus before He began preaching).
Im with you on the Whores for Humanity project. In fact, I am working on a pro bono brothel for Burning Man 2012. Got approval and everything…
I’ll be interested in hearing about that. Burning Man is something I’ve never been to, but it always seems so cool whenever I see anything about it. Environmentalists and robots everywhere, poets and engineers, sexiness and geekiness and maybe a few aging hippies still around.
And yeah, that’s media presentations and I’m sure I’ve got something wrong, but still… Burning Man!
I am sorry, but in my opinion a whore or a slut cannot be a homewrecker. It takes two to tango, and if Joe client or Joe skirt chaser has an interlude with another woman, of either the whore or slut variety, he is making his own choice. He is responsible for his actions, and knowing what his wife will do if she finds out. I think an angry wife is the typical one wrecking the home. Joe just wants to apologize, and forget he ever got caught.
Said whore or slut remains innocent of all homewrecking charges in my book.
Accountability for my actions lies with the individual. If I cheat on my SO, it is not my lovers fault but my own.
So, what whores are money grubbers, insensitive to the needs of their clients?
We don’t care what a man needs? I have never let an hour session turn into an overnight because some poor recently divorced guy just looked like he really needed someone?
I have never given a break to someone that is on social security, who is elderly and lonely? Or to someone that was laid off? One client offered to paint my house, because he couldn’t afford the money. I met with him, we had drinks, and a really enjoyable romantic evening together. No, he never paid me. He never painted my house either, I didn’t need him to. His emails compelled me. He was a great guy, that just needed a human connection. I didn’t say sorry Charlie, your broke. But he didn’t just say Hey baby, will you see me for free? I would have said no. He tried to show his appreciation in the best way he could, and it did gain him some much needed attention.
I have never had a disease either. Forget the horror of free love, imagine the horror of a nice young woman being locked away from her family because she did the same thing you did, but got paid.
Free love should mean free to engage in whatever type of arrangements sexually that you choose. If you are for it, then you should be pro whore too. I am certainly pro slut. Their very existence and acceptance further drives my point that whores do nothing wrong.
I am still failing to see the difference between your free love and my paid love.
A quick note: Laura supports decriminalization of prostitution. She’s already said so. She doesn’t have to think that it’s the greatest profession ever to think that you shouldn’t go to jail for practicing it.
Laura works for a living and I draw disability, so I’m able to reply now, while she has to wait until she gets home. Yes, I love her and have a natural desire to take up for her, but if you read some of our older posts you’ll also see that I don’t mind calling her on it when, as I put it, her horse is getting high. That damn equine needs to go into rehab sometimes.
But Laura is on the side of sex workers when it comes to the laws.
There is NO difference. Every woman, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, gets paid for her sexual participation in some way. Some are paid in money; others are paid in presents or political favors. Some are paid in love, social status, self esteem, personal or spiritual satisfaction, bragging rights, or the feeling that they’ve done something good for someone. And some even do it for the sexual thrills. If you want to claim that a woman isn’t being paid, you had better be prepared to prove it by showing me a completely sane, well-balanced, non-masochistic woman who doesn’t believe sex has any spiritual significance and yet has has anonymously given it for free to a dirty, ugly, diseased bum for whom she feels neither sympathy nor affection.
The problem with this definition of “paid” is that it is so broad that it no longer means anything. It’s like the argument that there’s no difference between the soldier who throws himself on a grenade to save his troop and the soldier who throws his comrade on a grenade to save himself: each was protecting what was most important to him, so each is equally selfish, so neither did a better thing than the other.
Exactly. And why should it mean anything? Why is one person’s motivation “better” than another’s? Neither you nor I have the right to say that some motivations toward harmless acts are “better” than others. And a government has even less right to do so.
A woman has the right to sex on her own terms, whatever those terms may be. Period. End of sentence.
There is a reason one of these soldiers gets called a hero and the other is called a coward. Are you really saying that there is no moral difference between the two soldiers in my example? Really?
I notice that you qualify motivation later with “harmless acts,” and I tend to go along with the idea that, while you or I might make a personal judgement about such things, government needs to stay out of the judging business on harmless acts.
Yes. There is no daylight between us on that. And she has that right whether she’s paid in money, jewelry, or not paid at all. You don’t have the right to have sex for pay because everybody is paid; you have the right to have sex for pay whether anybody else is getting paid or not.
Your initial example is spurious because you’re trying to compare motives, which cannot be known with certainty; all that can be compared are objective acts. The other soldier’s body isn’t his to throw, therefore his action is wrong, period. A proper example would be a soldier who throws himself on a grenade for the glory, or one who did it because he thought it was a ticket to heaven, or one who does it for friendship. There is no difference between the three, and if you think there is prepare to be disappointed: YOU CANNOT KNOW why any of them did it. None of us are mind readers. Society can only reward or punish objective acts; the inner motivations for those acts are between the individual and God.
I think we’ve reached one of those situations where we’re arguing two different things. We seem to be in agreement where it counts, as follows:
A woman who has sex with several guys because she’s horny, a woman who has sex with several guys because she feels that she’s doing a good deed, and a woman who has sex with several guys because they give her money, is still having sex with several guys.* There is no reason why the law should come down on one of them if it doesn’t come down on the others. Actually, the law shouldn’t come down on any of them. In a free society, the three women and their sexual practices should have exactly the same legal status: lawful personal behavior that the government (and thus law enforcement) needs to keep out of. Yes, that third woman needs to pay taxes like everybody else, but then the horny woman and the good-deed-doer need to pay taxes on the money they make however it is that they make it.
We are in agreement here.
A moral difference? Some would say yes, some would say no, some would say “it depends.” Whatever. You’re not supposed to go to jail for “being immoral.”
* Of course, a woman may have more than one motivation: a good-deed-doer could accept money for her deeds, because it lets her avoid a standard nine-to-five job and thus she has time for more good deeds; a horny lass might also consider it a good deed to provide the pleasure she herself enjoys; a woman might have all three motivations, believing that if you find a job you love you’ll never work a day of your life and that if you can do well by doing good you can be proud of every cent you spend, bank, invest, or give away.
And the law should get involved with this why?
Precisely. 🙂
Right, thats what I am saying. I think, honestly, you two confused me a minute back there.
I am not saying Laura is wrong, I think that she took the comment I made about “at least a whore has a head on her shoulders” as derogatory toward wilder women.
Nope. I am with you in that it is the same promiscuity, whether money, or any of the many payments maggie articulated are involved, I called it an agenda in a previous post, because I am not as smart as maggie to think of all of those very specific forms of payment.
I am not a “slut hater” a “drunk college girl” hater, a “stripper hater” or any other hater, I believe that sex is nobodies business if both parties are mature enough to make the decision, and are happy to be having sex with each other.
“You’re not supposed to go to jail for “being immoral.””
^^This
Dear Kelly, I owe you an apology. You’ve broken the stereotype in my mind for years that ALL prostitutes don’t care about the men who can’t afford them, can’t pay as much, etc. I came here with some stereotypes in my mind about prostitutes. Yes, I know I’m always talking about stereotypes/blanket statements, etc., but I’m guilty of holding them at times also. I had some with the death penalty and those who support it in all cases in the past and have had many broken by making the effort to talk to those people, read about their experiences, etc. So the same has happened here now. I also want to THANK YOU for talking to me DECENTLY. Thank you for not using swear words towards me and/or my beliefs, literally calling me “dumb” because I choose not to charge for sex and not making ASS-umptions about me without bothering to read my posts and/or ask me about why I do things the way I do. I apologize to you and the other prostitutes for thinking ALL of you are completely mercenary, etc. When I have time, I want to say more about all of this, but did want to at least apologize for my own ###*** belief that all prostitutes are completely mercenary, don’t give anyone discounts, etc. at any time. Also want to admit this has been 1 of my reasons for not charging specifically for sex, i.e., I wouldn’t be part of any mercenary system. 1 of the reasons I’ve done things the way I have is to literally help the men who don’t have much money or none be less sexually frustrated, BUT I was obviously exaggerating how bad it is (thinking none of the prostitutes would ever give these men any kind of break). Now I know better and that was needed. Thanks again for talking to me decently.
One of the things I love about Laura isn’t that she’s right about everything (nobody is), but that she’s able to come around on things when she’s wrong.
Must be tough. Glad I don’t have to do that. 😉
@Kelly and laura,
I am still failing to see the difference between your free love and my paid love.
Because, Kelly, there’s no difference. None.
Laura claims to respect that choice, and yet takes great pains to distance her lifestyle from yours. She carefully claims that she thinks people should do what they want, but still thinks whores are dirtier than other women.
My suspicion: internally, Laura is trying to compensate for possible criticism her lifestyle might get, by making sure that in her mind she doesn’t cross some rubicon, some barrier of what’s really “unacceptable.”
I’d have agreed with her on one level maybe 10 years ago.
But the hollowness of her position is pretty obvious.
There’s nothing – no difference – between a paid skanky ho and a voluntary one.
On the other hand, there’s no difference between either and a male skanky ho, either.
Laura takes umbrage at the idea that what she or any other woman might do is the equivalent of what whores get up to.
This is the same attitude you’ll find amongst housewives, too. In fact, one of the gravest insults you can throw a woman who doesn’t earn an income is “you’re nothing more than a glorified prostitute”.
First of all, where the fuck is my glory? Bring it on!
Second, there is no difference between being a housewife and being a whore EXCEPT for the number of clients, and so what? It’s only when prostitutes are cast as somehow “different” from other women that it becomes an insult.
Otherwise, we are all intelligent, rational, educated (by books or knocks) and fully self-aware individuals capable of making our own choices in life.
Housewife, slut, whore. Essentially all the same, and if we believe that women have the right to choose when, how and under what circumstances they will have sex, then why is any distinction necessary?
Women who insist they are somehow different from prostitutes are buying into the tired old madonna/whore complex. We are all madonnas, we are all whores. Those two states are not anathemas, they are two sides of the same whole.
“Free love” is just a chickenshit way of slamming other women who are making the exact same choices, but are smart enough to get paid for it. Typical passive aggressive female bullshit.
***
“I totally get where you’re coming from! LOL. You filthy whore. I love that you’re so sex positive! You probably have a disease. Just kidding! Love you! Skank. LOL”
***
Hate it so much.
I’m your new fangirl. Just wanted to say that.
I don’t think Laura has ever said anything about whores being disease-ridden. If you can point to where she has, I’ll snarl at her for that one myself.
For the most part, she isn’t saying “wild women are better than whores” so much as she’s saying “wild women are not worse than whores.” Big difference.
I have noticed some of that here, to be honest. Gorbachev loves to talk about college skanks, some of the prostitutes here like to say that they are obviously smarter than sluts because sluts are too dumb to get paid, etc. Indeed, I sometimes get the definite idea that charging for sex is seen by many here as being, not just financially superior to giving it away, but morally superior.
But this kills your own argument. If getting paid has no effect on the morality of screwing around, then how can not getting paid have any moral effect?
To go back to my Habitat for Humanity example: if the carpenter who gets paid for building a house isn’t a scumbag because he isn’t doing it for free like the guys at HfH, then the guy doing it for free at HfH isn’t a scumbag because he isn’t getting paid.
Yes, sometimes Laura’s horse starts hitting the bong and getting high, but hers isn’t the only horse at that pot party.
I only know Laura from her posts, but it seems to me that her feeling that giving sex away is morally superior to selling it has nothing to do with a whore stigma per se and everything to do with the fact that as a Christian she feels giving ANYthing away is morally superior to selling it. In other words, that it isn’t wrong to be a regular physician, lawyer, merchant or whore but that it’s more blessed to work pro bono when survival permits.
Is that pretty close, Sailor B?
I don’t think that’s too far off. You’ll have to ask her for more specifics.
I am one who freely admits feeling intellectually superior to some silly amateurs, and I shall tell you why. It is not that I am being paid and they “aren’t”, in coin that the landlord will take, anyhow. It’s that I know what I want, and I go in knowing that I’ll get it, every time. A girl who doesn’t know what she wants out of the deal, and doesn’t ensure she gets it, is not using her head.
I totally agree. I don’t feel superior to women who give it away knowing full well what they’re doing, but I do feel superior to silly tarts who don’t know why they give it away, or do so for other people’s reasons rather than their own, or convince themselves that their motivations are something different from what they actually are.
A man who gives money to the poor because he wants to has the right to feel morally superior to someone who is forced to do so by a law. However, society has no right to differentiate between the two because it’s impossible to know an individual’s true motivations.
Some women truly do not understand their own motivations. They think they’re being cool and sophisticated, when really they just want someone to love them.
Cause Will Fuck Me = Love, right?
Ultimately, it doesn’t matter, and that’s the point, right? If fucked up Daddy issues are an acceptable motivation to have sex, why isn’t Want Benjamins?
I can sell my soul in a bank that goes on to destroy tens of thousands of families, and that’s fine. But I can’t sell my mouth to some guy with a hundred bucks and a burning desire for a blowjob?
Which one causes more harm? Oh yeah. Blowjobs. That’s right. Well, at least when I give them.
Dude’s head explodes!
hee
Dear Andrea, I had my motivations in place way before I started having sex only friends. I knew what I wanted to do and why before I did it. Actually, if you do what you’re talking about with banks it ISN’T fine. If you don’t get punished for it while you’re alive doesn’t mean it was OK either. I love the people who think that if what is called earthly justice isn’t done that automatically means the people never get any punishment. There’s always the possibility of punishement after death and for anyone to say I know 100% for sure there’s no punishment in the afterlife is plain arrogant. I don’t personally agree with prostitution and want no part of it, but have for years been for decriminalization of it so I agree a lot with your example here. Actually, as Sailor B pointed out in this thread, I’ve said that repeatedly on here. You can hate something and want no part of it, but also want it decriminalized. I feel the same about drugs as prostitution but also want those decriminalized.
It does seem that your attitude towards prostitution is similar to Maggie’s towards recreational drug use.
You and Maggie both can tell me if I’m off here.
Dear Maggie, it’s impossible to know a person’s true motivations? What about they write them down, tell them to others, put them on the Internet, etc.? Many people have done this and that’s a wonderful thing. The fact that they put them out there has great value. Also, you can look at a person’s actions/words over time to see if there’s patterns. Do their words/actions never match up? If so, then there’s a problem and 1 of the possibilities is they’re faking something, trying to look better than they are, etc. If their words/actions match up over time, they’re to be commended for being consistent and caring to make the effort to work on their problems/faults. I say why not give people a chance and if they state their motives and they match up with their actions why not take their word for it?
There you go again with the idea that exceptions invalidate rules! Laura, most criminals don’t write manifestos or even make internet statements before committing crimes; ones who do so are a small minority which gets a great deal of press on the “man bites dog” principle. Under ordinary circumstances no, it is not possible to EVER know any person’s (criminal or otherwise) true motivations. We can guess, in some cases even hypothesize, but never KNOW. That’s why I feel we as humans can only reward or punish actions; mental states are between the individual and God.
It’s right in that it’s not possible to say 100% for sure what the person’s motives are, BUT how about giving credit where it’s due? If the person does put their motives out there and their actions match up with their words then shouldn’t that be acknowledged? How about saying it’s highly likely they mean what they say/do? This reminds me of the way too common belief (unfortunately) that the people on death rows that say they’re truly changed, know God now, etc., are just faking it/using it to try to get out of prison and/or get out of charges, etc. Those who say this I’ve yet to see ever acknowledge how the person has shown TRUE change over time (the change is consistent and the person becomes a better and better person). 2 examples I use all the time against this argument are Karla Tucker and St. Paul. Even if you think they were faking it, etc., don’t they deserve some credit for NOT being the people they once were? To me their changes proved greatly that they really HAD changed for the better. In both cases the changes LASTED. I get so tired of tearing people down and saying well, that’s how people are and just accept it: examples are they’re just being fake; EVERYONE is really scum and should just accept that and revel in it; men and women just lie and cheat in relationships so that’s just how it is and to even want to TRY for a higher and better standard is useless, etc., etc. How about FIGHT against these very sad DEFEATIST mentalities? I just remembered another 1: life isn’t fair. OK, that’s right to a degree, it isn’t too much of the time. But sometimes IT IS. I could give many examples from my own life of fairness, fair treatment I’ve gotten, etc. How about FIGHT this defeatist, cowardly mentality and work as much as possible to make things as fair as possible? ###*** the evil world system that in many ways wants to keep people accepting this stuff. Thanks for listening.
Uhm, not all whores are skanks either. Wow, what a discussion this is… I don’t call myself a skank anymore than a slut. But I hear ya Gorbachev.
Dear Kelly, isn’t it better to talk all this out instead of put on fake fronts? I think it’s great and needed.
There’s a lot of ground between putting on a fake front and being insulting. It isn’t a switch.
Dear Gorbachev, thanks for your wonderful ASS-umptions about me! Thanks! The truth is you don’t even know all my reasons for not charging for sex and have never bothered to ask either. It’s hilarious you bring up my social standing, etc., which is 1 example of all the stuff you love to bring up with your constant “gloom and doom” mentality anyway. An FYI: I’ve said on here at least once before my goal from the 1st day I had sex only friendships was to 1 day be OPEN ABOUT IT TO EVERYONE. If I cared so much about my social standing, then why in the world did I SET THAT GOAL? I told hardly anyone about being wild until a few years ago. A big part of that was my own FEAR of the ###*** I knew I’d get from some. I had to do the WORK to get through that fear and get to the point where I’d be open about it and not let any ###*** upset me to the point I’d self-destruct, etc. If I cared about my social standing, I wouldn’t have set that goal to begin with. It would help if you’d ASK people their reasons and read what they’ve said before REPEATEDLY and on purpose before you make your wonderful ASS-umptions. Also, if I think whores are so “dirty” then why in the world did I make a new friend who’s 1? That’s Joyce, who used to post here. Why is that? People don’t make friends with those they think are “dirty”. And if I think they’re so dirty then why did I bother to come here to BEGIN WITH knowing that this place was started by a former prostitute? Seriously? I could have come here and just said things like “burn in hell”, “you’re all scum”, etc., etc. I’ve not done that, have I? Also, in my own defense, NOT ONCE have I ever said on here that any woman who chooses to charge for sex is LITERALLY DUMB like has been said by some about women like me who choose not to charge. This is to my credit. I just remembered: you pretty much hate giving credit where it’s due. You revel in your gloom and doom mentality and go along with the ###*** world system that says stuff like: all the women are Machievllian (not sure if I spelled that right) and love being bitches, are out to get each other, etc. RIGHT! Of course the 1’s (like me) who HATE this and FIGHT IT and don’t want any part of it are NEVER mentioned. Are there times I’ve given into it? Yes, but not many and I hated myself after I gave in and resolved to do better from then on. There’s at least a few women who fight and hate this ###*** Machievellian stuff. I once let Maggie know that coming here HAS TAUGHT ME. The truth is I had at least a few stereotypes in my mind about prostitutes and I’m pretty sure (but not positive) I said that also. Another stereotype in my mind has now been broken by Kelly who I’m going to write an apology to. She’s broken the stereotype in my mind that no prostitutes ever care about the men who don’t have money, can’t afford to pay that much, etc. I now know better and that’s a great and needed thing. Also, you’ve shown over and over again YOUR bias towards women who don’t charge (the college skanks, etc.). Repeatedly you’ve made remarks about them like: loose morals, groping everyone, running around naked and drunk, etc., that you don’t make about prostitutes. With them you pretty much only say positive things. Then you have the nerve to jump on my head because I show my bias towards women who don’t charge? You’re doing what you accuse me of. You’re just on the other side of the argument. I’m not the only 1 who’s noticed your bias either so please don’t start your ###*** like you did with me once saying you react to me the way you do because I’m a man. RIGHT! I explained that was unfair projection on your part towards me and didn’t even get the courtesy of an answer. But, something like this you can make your wonderful ASS-umptions about, you sure make the time to revel in it. Why not take the time to actually care enough to ASK why I choose not to charge, etc., instead of making ASS-umptions? You may want to do that sometime also with: Muslims, social conservatives and Christians who are also groups you revel in targeting.
@Andrew,
Women make a good show of the “sisterhood”, but it’s all for show. They judge each other and are machiavellian operators for more often and with far greater ability than men. Men aren’t simple – and there’s crossover –
But women are the ones who are most obsessed with status, especially with each other. This is what evolution would predict.
Males largely want status in order to get laid. For most men, it’s a means to an end. For women, it’s an end unto itself.
Laura is just playing the “I’m not a slut/whore” game: she wants to behave exactly the same way, but not pay the price in social judgment.
When it gets right down to it, most men respect whores. The ones who don’t usually imbibed the Female status-consciousness koolaid.
Who drives status-based consumer culture everywhere? Women. Almost exclusively. Where men do it, it’s usually done to impress women (cars: Look, I’m independent! In style!). Women do it largely to impress… other women.
So you can expect women like Laura to be extremely attuned to minor differences that raise her own perceived status.
When men are guilty of shit like this, as a rule, it usually involves a different kind of sociopathy or pathology. Okay, it’s often worse – but the upshot is that quietly, a lot of men don’t understand what all the fuss is about.
Whore or woman – same deal. Different asking prices.
My SO has a certain asking price, too; of course, one I’m willing to pay. But I’m under no illusions that the difference between this and prostitution is profound.
People demonize whores but don’t socially punish women who jump from bed to bed without accepting cash for the transaction.
I find that objectionable.
it’s the same thing. Except one gets paid. No difference of any kind.
That’s why I keep mentioning “skanks”. Because while whores are judged as inferior, stupid or delusional, women – and I know a large number – who do it (but not for cash) are not judged the same way.
The same feminists that resist “slut shaming” and the insulting of non-whore women are often the first to slam prostitution and whores, and the men who see them.
The hypocrisy is breathtaking.
(as I said, it’s more about whores being strikebreakers than anything else. Absolutely).
It’s also due to neofeminism, Gorbachev. Since men cannot earn a living from having sex with women, and instead only have sex for their own pleasure, the “monkey see, monkey do” neofeminists want women forced to behave exactly the same way by being punished for or prohibited from taking money and brainwashed into thinking promiscuity is for their own pleasure. 🙁
Dear Gorbachev, it’s an evil lie that women who don’t charge aren’t judged in the same ways prostitutes are at LEAST part of the time. Here’s 1 example I’ve already given: not long ago I was reading reviews of a book by a famous groupie. Many in the reviews were saying the groupies in the book: have no self-esteem, have NO morals in ANY areas of their lives, are dirty, full of STD’s, dumb, completely wasting their lives and no man will ever marry them or want them for a girlfriend, etc. I really love that last 1 because at least some of the groupies in the book have been married, etc. I’ve just “come out” as what I call a “wild woman” in the past few years. I’ve already gotten some ###***. I’m not surprised. And the ###*** I’ve gotten is the same kind of stuff the prostitutes get. Please don’t say we don’t get ###*** because we DO. I could give a lot more examples than the above also. So could others in my life who I’ve come out to. I don’t want to leave out the POSITIVES (something that you’re an expert on with all your “gloom and doom” talk and the WONDERFUL ASS-umptions you’ve made about me and why I choose to not charge for sex, etc.) I’ve had since coming out fully. Actually, the few I told years ago about all this didn’t once say anything demeaning. 1 friend was concerned about my safety but to her credit she said it with TACT and true caring. Yes, I know how tact is hated by many these days (an example from you: anyone who knows how those Muslims are…), but am glad for those who still care about it. So I say always point out the positives and be thankful for them. I expected ###*** when fully coming out, but it won’t stop me from speaking out EVER. Do all talk about the wild women in horrible ways? NO and that needs to be pointed out. But, some do, and it’s the same kind of talk about prostitutes. This proves 1 of the reasons I came here for: to show that the wild women and prostitutes have more in common than they think and instead of seeing each other as some kind of “threat” (and yes, I’ve been guilty of this at times) why not work for more understanding of each other and acknowledge what we have in common?
I have heard it said that there is no such thing as a truly unselfish act. That things that are done for free or that we think of as us giving, still pays us in kind by making one feel better about themselves.
Yeah. This is one of those philosophical things that, while probably true in a very narrow sense, is meaningless.
Yes, the guy who give away lots of money to the poor and the guy who steals lots of money from the poor* are both motivated by “what is important to me.” So in that very narrow and meaningless sense, there is no difference between the two.
But if you really believe that stealing and giving are morally the same, then I probably don’t want to talk to you.
* from a whole lot of the poor, if the money stolen is ever going to amount to “lots”
Woah cowboy! I mention nothing about stealing! When it was said to me it had meaning simply because it was not something I had stopped to think about before. Upon reflection, I realized it was a true statement.
It’s not a matter of “what is important to me”, it’s a matter of “what do I get out of this”. In a personal sense, not materialistic. I hold the hands of surgery patients when they are scared. Not because I am paid to (hold their hands) but it makes ME feel better knowing that I am making them feel better, therefore it is not a purely selfless act.
What would Laura’s motivation be for free fucking voluntarily for men who can’t afford prostitutes? To make the guys feel better only or would she also get something out of it, perhaps a sense of accomplishment and feeling better about herself.
As long as no one is harmed, stolen from, or have their other rights infringed upon, I could give a shit about motivation. We each do things for our own reasons and as long as no humans were harmed in the making of this movie, I don’t really care. And if it makes someone actually feel better at the end of it, more power to them!
The stealing thing was just an example. The extreme version of this philosophical exercise. Didn’t mean to suggest that you were into stealing, or that you approve of stealing.
What you do for surgery patients is wonderful. You have every right to feel good about it. My problem with the way some people take the “all is selfishness” thing is that it makes what you do the exact moral equivalent of what Benjamin Geen did. You get to feel good, he got a thrill; see, both selfish motivations.
Except, of course, that what he did killed two people and harmed fifteen others. What you do helps people in a frightening situation.
The people who take this idea as a way of keeping themselves humble, well OK. But some take it as an excuse to just say “I’ll take what I want; fuck whoever gets hurt; those ‘good’ people are just like me anyway; all is selfishness.”
I see what your saying (God I hate philosophical debates.. due to this). I guess there is extreme selfishness in the “all for me, to hell with all of you” aspect and perhaps the “I don’t mean for this to be selfish but it does make me feel good” aspect.
I reach out to help and end up helping myself in return. What Geen did was just a matter of helping himself. (BTW I have no idea who this dude is, I have to Google his ass).
Ahh that dude. Yea, he caused harm to others so that he could play hero. He didn’t show TLC to them and in turn feel like he did a job well done. He just wanted the “job well done” feeling.
I meant to do the link thing with Geen. Don’t read while in an emotionally vulnerable state.
@Maggie McNeill
Exactly. And why should it mean anything? Why is one person’s motivation “better” than another’s? Neither you nor I have the right to say that some motivations toward harmless acts are “better” than others. And a government has even less right to do so.
A woman has the right to sex on her own terms, whatever those terms may be. Period. End of sentence.
Let me reframe this (neofeminists say this all the time).
Men also have the right to have sex on their own terms with a willing woman (or man, for that matter) on whatever terms they find agreeable. So long as consent is given – the rest of the world has no right to regulate this activity. No matter the activity.
Men have the right to have sex on their own terms.
Step back.
People have the right to have sex on their own terms.
And this brings me to:
The problem is that neofeminists want to define what is acceptable sexuality and what isn’t.
Men who objectify women are evil, that’s wrong sexuality.
(Corollary: Are women who objectify men wrong, as well? That’s standard practice, too).
Sex as a commodity is wrong. Well, everything in human life is a commodity: what isn’t? How the hell will you police this?
Feminism as it’s currently practiced by non-libertarian feminists wants to legislate what is and isn’t acceptable in consensual sex.
Visual depictions: Porn is unacceptable because it represnets the degradation of women as objects of sexual desire.
News flash: Have these women ever HAD sex with men? Being an object of sexual desire is the Sine Qua Non of being attractive to a man.
This is the problem. Neofeminists and many hard-core standard feminists want to tell other people what is and isn’t acceptable modes of thought when it comes to sex.
This is why the MRM types think feminism is a kind of marxist-naziist totalitarianism. And the “feminazis” don’t get it, because they’re so steeped in their self-righteousness that they can’t see anything from any perspective but their own sense of permanent victimhood.
And the reframing has a point. Once again, it’s about middle-class women trying to control male sexuality through the control of other women. Deny them access, and you control your man. This perfectly explains the resentment and disgust such women register at even the idea of prostitutes.
Keeping a suitable man and having absolute control over him, usually through control of access to sex, is one of the key life strategies of human females.
The first wife wants a say over the choice of Second Wife an alpha male has. She wants control in the Harem.
The wife who marries a guy who isn’t her first choice will be sorely pissed if he strays; if she marries the top dog, if he strays this is maybe fine so long as he’s repentant. if married to a beta male the woman reacts like this: You’re not as good I could have got, and you BETRAYED me! Bastard! Had she married the top dog, she’d be much more forgiving.
The whole point is to control male sexuality. Reign it in. Control men through access to sex.
Men get this right away. You don’t even need to explain it: middle-class women can rationalize it (it’s about trust, loyalty, blah blah blah) – but that’s all it is, rationalization.
It’s about social control. It’s about power in a mating strategy. If a guy goes to a whore, it’s no risk to a woman’s relationship. If a guy gets another woman and is serious – again, there’s the risk.
But better: “If you’re not good to me/give me stuff/submit to my power, I’ll deny you sex.”
This is a “sexual power union”.
The whole resentment to this comes from jealousy and loss of personal power. It has *nothing* to do with concern for prostitutes: The most vocal anti-prostitution advocates do nothing to help women transition out of this industry; they often view them as filthy trash, even more than others do.
Summary:
Men have the right to have sex on their own terms, too.
Prostitutes piss women off not because of a feminist concern for women. Zero percent. It’s all charade.
It pissed feminists and neofeminists alike (sorry Maggie, but it gets many standard issue feminists, too, especially the conservative ones), because prostitutes are essentially
“strikebreakers”.
I’ve never seen any convincing argument that isn’t an obvious swindle to counter this observation.
And having dated a whore (albeit, this was one of many significant relationships I’ve had, I say it because almost no men have ever done this) – on a personal level – I know the BS that gets spouted, while sometimes true, is as often not true at all.
I know I could never tell my family this. They’re catholic and conservative. MY SO knows this story, and thinks it’s kind-of gross, but after weeks of thought, now buys my explanation.
Note: Both MEN and WOMEN use anti-prostitution arguments in order to control men. Men want to control other men, much of the time. They’re being used by their wives and the powerful women they rely on (re: Politicians kowtowing to neofeminist ideas). And they’re using them.
You know how to avoid this kind of internecine strife?
Fuck it all.
Just promote civil rights. Defend your enemies’ civil rights, and your own.
Let the chips fall where they may. Then the actual opinions people have – hypocritical and all – don’t matter.
Giving the state power in bedrooms suits those who like social control.
And that’s why they’re Feminazis.
It’s an excellent term. I’ve always defended it. If you want to include their male enablers, politicians and cops who want control, then you can call it “sexual Nazis”.
But that sounds too much like something funky.
I find it very interesting that women’s pornography (aka the romance novel) can be consumed almost anywhere, at any time, under any circumstance, and no one bats an eye.
But male pornography? Get out the brown paper bags and cover that shit up!
I think you’re absolutely right, Gorbie. Middle class women want the right to be fat and bitchy and don’t want to face any consequences for that. The solution is to legalize prostitution and give those women some real competition!
@Andrea,
it’s true: Women want no consequences. of course they do. If you can extract power without consequences, who wont’ take it?
it’s like the presumption of guilt in many rape allegations. it’s as bad as the presumption of female false allegations.
If you make it easy for a woman to cry rape, hide her identity permanently even if she lied, have no consequences for lying and brutalize the man who is accused – and presume him guilty – it’s not rocket science. Women are human, and given this level and degree of raw social power, some (if not many) women are going to use this power to falsely punish men.
It’s about social power. There are as many female sociopaths as male ones.
I say it’s not even about the specifics. Just stop giving neighbors, governments or anyone the power to regulate sex lives.
And I haven’t even gotten to the absurdity of arresting 17-year-olds for filming themselves having sex. Child pornography, don’t you know?
Sexual predator registries all around.
I didn’t know fucking was a crime.
Please.
ggggrrrrrr
They don’t even have to film themselves having sex. A Playboy-type pic is enough (and God help her if it’s a Hustler-like pic).
I should contact a bookie and see when I should start taking bets on some random teen getting arrested for masturbation. Child molestation, and never mind that the molester and the molestee are the same person.
Gorb, my husband said he doesn’t quite understand what you mean by “Did marrying a self-declared harlot free you from sexual bondage personally? Or were you even interested in this?” Could you try rephrasing it?
As in, did this free you to be non-monogamous; or did she leave the industry completely and swear her eternal monogamy and you both rode off into the sunset with smiles?
If Maggie, say, entertained a client for a big chunk of dough, would you feel free to wander – or is it even relevant to you?
@Laura,
I think you don’t like criticism or men.
Or commentary from men.
In these debates, you’ve been the one to make almost every assumption. I don’t recall Maggie, myself, Kelly, or any of the prostitutes or their commenters doing that.
Anyway, you seem to misunderstand whatever I write – so I think I can leave it at that.
Gorbachev, do you only read the replies Laura makes to you posts? Have you not noticed that she’s just as quick to call a woman out on something, if she thinks she needs calling out, as she is you? But you want to retreat into “I think you don’t like criticism or men.”
Has she been as combative with other men as with you? No? Then maybe it isn’t just your dreadful maleness.
I saw, many years ago, some cruddy low-budget thing about characters who got swapped into another universe. Don’t remember the name. I do remember that, before the universe-swapping, the female character swerved her car and ran the male character off of the road. The guy got out of his car and started chewing her out for it. He didn’t say anything about “women drivers” or “dumb broads” or anything like that. Still, she sneered and told him that he was only upset with her because she’s a woman. I guess she figured he didn’t mind being run off the road and nearly killed if the other driver is a man.
I think you add a useful perspective here, but it’s hard to take you seriously when you try to hide behind your Y chromosome. It isn’t men who rub Laura the wrong way, it’s you.
Quite an entertaining conversation! Gorbachev…..I like ya. Laura, I am fully and unashamedly mercenary about the time and companionship I’m paid for. No money, no time. I have a half million other things I could be doing that are astronomically more important to me than sacrificing myself to the altar of another’s whims for free.
Dear Kelly, sorry I haven’t answered your questions on this post yet. I will answer them when I can along with questions/comments from others. I’m going to be taking a leave from work soon to catch up on a lot of things plus get some needed TRUE vacation/rest time. I’m going to work on answering stuff on here as I can before that time. Something I do have time to say now: I’ve chosen to keep sex as free as possible for many reasons and the 1 limit I put on my time was I purposely didn’t socialize outside of sex with my sex only friends if at all possible. I would go on 1 date (some of them I didn’t do this as we’d talked on the phone before we met) and after that it was we’d have sex and they’d leave. Overnight visits were rare and I only allowed them if my friend drove a long way or I did. I did things this way to avoid the risk of getting emotionally involved. I’m very thankful it worked as no one I met ever interfered with my relationship with Sailor Barsoom. I chose to be free with my time except for the limits listed above. Sailor B and I also lived over 250 miles apart during this time so I had more free time. Anyway, we’ve chosen to handle our time involved with sex differently and that way is right for each of us.
Dear Kelly, I fully and unashamedly choose to keep sex as free as possible and will do that the rest of my life. The truth is there’s some men who can’t afford whores even if they give a discount (thank you again for showing me that not all whores don’t ever give discounts, etc. I really believed when I came here none of them did this.) and/or the whores in their area don’t give discounts. There’s also men who don’t want to see whores. They deserve to have women to see also. There should be women for ALL to see is the way I see it. The women who can have sex and not get emotionally involved are rare, but they help tremendously. This ability to have sex without getting emotionally involved isn’t exclusive to whores or non-whores. The thought of a world without women like this is plain horrible and sad. I’m proud that I’ve made a difference and helped some men (and a few women) be less sexually frustrated. There’s room for the whores and non-whores in this world to help people be less sexually frustrated. Thanks for listening.