Readers, I recently got this letter from a sex worker I’ve known for years. Obviously I’m not in a position to know all the ins and outs of the situation, but this lady is very sharp and I talked to her about some of the earlier incidents she refers to as they happened, including the one from three years ago. I have edited this a bit for conciseness, to remove a few unnecessary personal details and to embed links, but the rest is hers. The “Gina” she refers to is the owner of Preferred 411 (“P411”), a client verification service to which I’ve referred on multiple occasions.
Dear Maggie,
I am writing this in hopes that you may help me to share this information regarding P411. I was reluctant to come forward at first, but after the evidence that presented itself today, I can no longer deny the responsibility that I have to my sisters to report that I strongly believe that the security of the site can no longer be trusted. I was the biggest proponent of P411 for years, but now sadly, I must say that Gina and I exchanged emails today that can leave me with no other impression than that she is working with cops, maybe even the FBI.
Three years ago a man claiming to be “Danny H___”* attempted to schedule appointments with me in Orlando, Florida, using a very memorable email address. I was provided with screening information that led to a Florida real estate license, so I made the appointment; however, my intuition kept telling me that something was wrong so I ran some checks on the contact form he filled out on my website. A back door tracker showed it originated at “Orange County Telecommunications”, and following that back took me to the police department website. I quickly cancelled the appointment, yet had already told him the hotel; he begged me to see him, and when I looked out the window I saw two blacked out undercover Dodge Chargers in the parking lot, parked driver to driver in the style of the police. So I told him that I found him attractive and would see him for free, and suddenly he lost interest. Hmm.
Early last week, I was surprised to be contacted by that same memorable email address again! I had just posted a new ad on Eros for the Tampa area (which includes Orlando). Because I knew he was a cop from last time, I decided to look at the MBI website and found a message from the Director breaking down their efforts to eliminate escort advertising from Orlando for tourism reasons. I spent hours reading it, and began tracking all of my communications. Imagine my further surprise when each of four different client contacts that day all tracked back to the same Orlando IP address as the cop’s email; in fact, each of the four clients forwarded all of my emails to the same four contacts in various locations of the country, all showing “human trafficking” task forces located in those cities.
I went into high alert mode, using P411 as my preferred source of screening, and that day I was contacted by two P411 members. I agreed to meet one of them, but had to redirect his conversation many times because he kept saying graphic things that would not occur in a tantric session. I never want to blow a client out of the water by shouting “There is no sex in my sessions”; I let them figure it out on their own and they are usually OK with it. But this guy wouldn’t let go of the sex talk prior to meeting. In fact, he got a little upset and said, “This is too much work. It sounds like you are just an escort, not Tantra with Sex.” I explained that I had to be careful due to Florida’s efforts to impose moral agendas by persecuting erotic education. And boy, did that email get a lot of attention; it was forwarded or opened 68 times on 5 different devices in 5 different cities. In fact, all of the contacts that week circulated my emails to the same network, including some in which the supposed client wanted me to cross a state line to see him (which is fishing for a Mann Act charge). I have detailed tracking reports on all of these emails, though none got quite as much attention as the one in which I mentioned that I was aware of current police operations.
Once I had verified that all of these suspect mails were coming from the same IP address as the P411 account, I contacted P411 immediately by phone; the operator (with zero sense of urgency) told me to email Gina. I had to do that twice before she replied, and her replies left me with no doubt that she is working with the cops. She claims that a P411 client forwarding our emails to known police IP addresses is not an issue because IP addresses are “garbage information”. I agree that without other information, they mean very little, but when the addresses are clearly part of a network and the same IP comes up again and again, it is undeniable that something in the milk ain’t clean. When I explained how I knew these addresses were associated with known cops, she categorically stated that the original client from three years ago was “with no doubt, NOT LE”. Following this oddly-certain declaration I decided to Google that memorable email address, and found multiple blacklist reports which also identified him as LE (in direct contradiction of Gina’s statement). When I confronted her with this evidence, her reply was, “Some people just live for drama and paranoia.”
This is not the first time I’ve suspected problems with P411. Prior to the Denver busts using fake P411 accounts last June I had emailed Gina about suspicious activity from a Denver account with zero OKs who forwarded my emails to Colorado State Government computers; this supposed newbie was trying to get me to travel from Florida to Colorado and to “bring a friend to Colorado because I like to watch”. Pretty odd for a newbie to reach out to Florida for something as easy to find as a duo, unless you’re trying to invent a “human trafficking” scenario. But this week, when I reminded Gina of that incident, she claimed the username I reported was not the one involved in the busts. There was one other incident last year: I checked my P411 account after a long absence and found that my phone number had been changed to someone else’s; searching the new number revealed a duplicate of my ad, complete with my photo and an apparently false review. Gina’s reaction to that issue was to say that I must have changed the phone number myself.
I didn’t speak out then because I could not believe that Gina, as well respected as she is, could really be in on this. I’m also aware that Gina and P411 reside in Canada, but with the current “sex trafficking” hysteria who knows what agreements may have been made between the two countries’ police agencies? And it’s not like there is no such thing as extradition for “crimes” that are now being represented as something very serious. Furthermore, I’m not the first provider to accuse Gina of being “dirty”, and several clients I know are concerned that she is preparing to “cash out” due to the fact that she was recently offering lifetime P411 memberships for the cost of two years (citing “bad business decisions” as her reason). Today I deleted my account. But I have a responsibility to stand up as an activist and say that these things are undeniable, and I have the evidence to prove it.
Months before the Denver incident, P411 was also compromised in Wisconsin and Little Rock, Arkansas; there was also evidence of a much more serious problem which I included in TW3 #43, but removed mere hours before publication time because Gina came up with a seemingly-credible explanation for it. But now, the circumstantial evidence appears to be stacking up; even if this can all be explained, it has not been as yet. Services like P411 run on trust, and Gina does not appear to be investing enough effort in maintaining that trust; until and unless she does, I would advise all escorts using the service to be wary and to run your own extensive screening on anyone who approaches you via P411.
*Mr. H____ has emailed me and insists that he had nothing to do with this sting operation; given that the police don’t care whom they hurt in their crusade against whores, it’s entirely possible they could simply be using his name without his permission.
Maggie, the first link—”MBI website—returns an Error 404 Page not found message. http://www.police-mbi.net also gives a not found message. Something deleted?
I’ve cited this before, but it’s actually pretty relevant to this:
http://adultinternetlaw.com/articles/police_investigation.php
Hmm. As an IT security expert, this sounds very, very fishy to me. You cannot track when emails are opened or where they are forwarded to unless you happen to have compromised the computers this is happening on or the email servers involved. The functionality is just not there, you have to insert it by force from the outside. Yet there are a lot of claims in this direction in the letter.
Are you sure this is genuine?
One alternative I see is that the sender confuses some messaging system with (RFC2822) email. If this was, say, messages on some P411 system, then it could track who accessed it, and if the site offers that functionality, who it was forwarded to. Of course, the cops would be terminally stupid not to disable that functionality if they have compromised P411, but terminally stupid cops seem to be more the norm than the exception.
Cops are lazy too. When pursuing victimless crimes – they’ll always be lazy and go after the low-hanging fruit. They don’t mind busting the hookers who are more ignorant of IT security issues. In a lot of cases – they won’t even try to cover their tracks.
They also probably don’t have proper IT backup – at which point default settings that load images and thereby enable tracking of forwards becomes quite plausible.
Celos is absolutely correct … where the receiving organisation is practicing data security as a core value. It doesn’t seem to me like the risk to LE is nearly sufficient currently to incentivise them to bother.
Use an email which contains an image reference. Track the http requests for that image.
(you need to make sure that the image reference is to an image on a server you can track the http requests of)
… and that the user is using a Browser instead of a proper email-client to read email and has automatic loading of external images on (pretty insecure and dangerous…). This would still not give you the forwards.
See comment by “Hi” below.
As an “IT Security Expert” I’m surprised at your lack of knowledge in security matters.
There is indeed technology that allows you to see exactly where the original email was opened, how many times it was opened, for how long, if it was forwarded, to whom it was forwarded, how many times they opened it, etc.
I know this as it is how I’ve been screening for nearly 7 years now.
Even if the technical details are wrong, Gina’s attitude sounds very fishy.
Well, considering that unencrypted email is completely unsecure, and known to be monitored by the US government (see Groklaw and Lavabit), why are escorts using it again? You should be working on hidden services over ToR (and even that isn’t 100% secure, there’s rumours that the NSA has broken that, but I don’t think I believe them, not enough news about child pornography sites being taken out).
Maybe the police were daft enough to leave the “return recipt” on? I’m not certain how those work though.
TOR was developed by NRL – and then thrown out for public consumption – there has never existed a more obvious and transparent “Trojan Horse” than TOR. It was developed by the US government – OF COURSE the NSA can get into it – they never had to break it … they MADE the keys!!
By the way … NSA treats ANY encrypted communication ANYWHERE in the world as a matter of immediate national security if they can’t break it. They immediately throw every resource they have on such communications until they have broken the code.
If you were to develop a encrypted code tomorrow that they couldn’t crack – you can bet they’d be on your doorstep demanding the key – OR ELSE!!
This is thew way it’s been for decades.
I have known Roger Dingledine for 12 Years now, and the story he told back then how he got them to fund TOR is fascinating. Unless he has been a Government mole for a very long time and has done pretty solid privacy engineering while being that (and successfully deceived a lot of people), no chance. Also keep in mind that if TOR were a trap, they would have made this far less obvious. The government does not manage to “think around two corners”. Hiding things in plain sight is far beyond them.
As to “every resource”, if you look at the network communication in the TOR network, that will not be a lot and far from sufficient. True, they store everything encrypted they see for 5 years now, but for most things they do not even try to break them, they simply do not have the resources.
Then there is that there is absolutely no known incident of them (likely) breaking TOR. Sure, TOR users that have been stupid have been identified, like the ones that have identifying traffic in their web-request, the guy that caused the only TOR traffic from his dorm directly before emailing a bomb-threat, or the people that used outdated versions of the TOR browser bundle with a known JavaScript vulnerability and JavaScript not turned off when freedom hosting was taken down. But these are not successful attacks on TOR and these risks are explained in the TOR documentation.
You seem to have swallowed the propaganda that parts of the NSA likes to put out, namely that resistance is futile. It is not. They can do far less than is commonly believed. Hell, they cannot even keep a contractor from stealing their crown jewels.
You really have no idea what my background is – and I’m not going into it. Let’s just say I’ve been in positions where things were “visible” to me,
Indeed. Same here.
Please point me to the “resistance is futile” propaganda? The “propaganda” that NSA puts out is 100% along the lines that they follow the law and constitutional principles always and they aren’t interested in invading American privacy.
If Snowden’s done anything – he’s proven that propaganda false.
Now – the NSA IS NOT interested in people’s sex lives or private lives beyond wanting them on file in a database somewhere “JUST IN CASE” something develops in the future. But even that is problematic and they don’t see this.
They really DO think they are protecting the American way of life … they’re just out there trying to get clues to protect Americans. They really don’t see that what they are doing is counter to constitutional principles and they ignore the fact that their activities rightfully erode American’s trust in their government. They are trading a terrorist threat – for an eventual revolutionary threat from common Americans once the “tipping point” their activities are causing is hit.
I will tell you with 100 percent accuracy – you can bank this – the NSA has the keys to the whole TOR network, They may not be collecting everything just yet – they only collect the stuff they think they might remotely need at some point in the future – and frankly I’d be surprised if they weren’t archiving all of it based on their … “everything could eventually be a clue” SOP.
But friend – whether they are archiving it or not – do not take the bet that they don’t have the ability to crawl completely up the onion’s ass anytime they wish to,
You may be an IT security expert – have you ever been in the NSA building for a classified tour? Or – ever worked directly with them or have many friends who still work for them? No? Well then let someone who has tell you that the NSA’s resources – were you to be introduced to them personally – would cause your jaw to hit the floor.
I’ve been in defense for over 30 years – there are a handful of government orgs that NEVER WORRY about monetary resources. The NSA is one of them. They are bankrolled by the taxes of hundreds of millions of American taxpayers – they have tools and resources that you can’t even envision and would never think were possible on this planet at this time in our history.
Sorry, but the NSA cannot have “the keys to the whole TOR network”, as there are no such keys. Even if they had them, that would be of limited use. Maybe read up on the technology some time before you spout such nonsense?
And can the ad hominem, you have no idea what my relation to the NSA or people that work for them is or has been. I happen to know quite a bit. Of course, nothing detailed as I do not even have a clearance and I am not a US citizen. But I do know that some capabilities I used to have (quite legally) were superior to theirs. In some regards they are quite pathetic.
As to infrastructure, brute force is vastly overrated.
I’m using the word “keys” as I would to describe entry into a house. The TOR network is a house that the NSA can get into ANYTIME they wish to. If you don’t believe that – keep using it and eventually you see.
Empty claims, not convincing. I think you have either nothing or have misunderstood or misinterpreted something you saw.
DSNs (delivery status notifications) are usually off, because they can easily turn a mail-server into a SPAM relay and then it will be on numerous block-lists pretty fast and become unusable. Client-side mechanisms typically require the user to explicitly confirm or some stupid configuration mistake like automatic image loading from the web. It may possible, but far from reliable.
None of these give you the forwards tough.
Somewhere, in the Florida area, it’s possible a child is being trafficked. It’s nearly certain that undocumented workers are. There’s rape, murder. Yet the police are spending all this time and resources chasing down an adult woman who is doing sex work willingly
The police spare no expense to hunt down a 14 year old girl who takes a nude picture of herself, but if she is raped by a football player, it takes public protests to get them out of the donut shop.
Well expect Gina to suddenly become a commenter here in 3 … 2 … 1 …
That’s her modus operandi.
Hey look – I’m no fan if P411 and the primary reason is because Gina constantly insists it’s 100 percent safe and nothing online is even 50 percent safe. So that’s snake oil right there but …
Give me a break – this woman is a flake.
Let’s set the record straight – these “Tantric Massage” ladies are nothing more than a group of women who can’t stomach sex with just any man who comes along … so they’ve tried to carve out a “no penetration” niche in the sex industry for themselves by claiming to provide some “magnificent” higher experience through … “Tantra”. The problem is – a lot of men buy it … “Oh I’m not really cheating on my wife – I’m simply engaging in a higher form of erotic education to make my sex life with her better! She’ll thank me later!”
Uhm … bullshit. I don’t mind people engaging in the “hobby” for various reasons but when they lie to themselves about their motivations – I have to call ’em on it.
How??!!!
If she can track emails like this – she should shuck Tantric massage and go to work for the NSA.
Well, Gina is correct about that isn’t she?
I do not think P411 is secure – and I think it’s just waiting to be “exploded” in some cataclysmic way by LE – but I do not think Gina is helping LE. I think she’s deluding herself about how secure it is – and that’s why people should stay away from it … you basically have a gal in charge who thinks her site is bulletproof – and any “irregularities” that spring up she blames on user indiscretion and folly – but her shit is always “tight”.
Sorry – but that’s not true.
Gina is welcome to respond, and I hope she does.
I’m definitely not very computer savvy, but I think the writer may have been using a service like readnotify? I’m an escort and it’s a service used fairly often by escorts who are careful screeners. It allows you to see how many times an email has been opened, how many devices it’s been viewed on, and it shows the general area/ip address of the device which views the email. Seems like it could account for the details the lady gathered. I myself have declined appointments after seeing my emails forwarded or opened in any kind of suspicious pattern.
Yes, that would make sense.
Could you email me on this Grace ? Thanks….
@Celos An “IT security expert” should be familiar with web bugs and multiple other means to track when emails are opened and forwarded. Marketing communications and “customer relationship management systems” do this on a massive scale. It requires no particular sophistication by the user.
This is very old news for those of us who are concerned about privacy. A private messaging service like P411 has even more options to track, and good reasons for doing so. The writer implies but does not confirm that she was using features of the P411 service.
I find the writer’s story credible.
I am familiar with them. They do not work with even a halfway secure installation and neither do the work with sane (and customary) defaults, such as you would find in a client that has professional system administration or even some protection against email malware installed. You overestimate what can be done.
Detecting email forwarding is not possible at all without hacking the server, client or listening on the network, no chance. Sorry, maybe read the relevant documentation some time.
As forwarding is a strong claim in the letter, my doubts that this is “email” remain.
I was thrown off P411 last year because I publicly posted a warning after numerous attempts with Gina to clean up the P411 site and get their security under control. Anytime you throw off a well reviewed provider because she has concerns “its a bad thing” and after reading this new article, I am more sure then ever that I was right. I also had concerns that the P411 clients kept messaging me through P411 sever, to inquire about illegal acts, and when I complained about their behavior to Gina, she told me the other providers don’t care so its OK with her that the clients behave this way. I also have received emails from other providers who tell me Gina threatened them because they blacklisted a P411 client. Another escort was told by Gina/P411, that all her rates on all her ads had to match her P411 profile…. hmm Gina/P411 is starting to sound like David Elm the original TER owner who exploited and threatened women if they wouldn’t give freebies to him and his friends.
There is some info here: “clients kept messaging me through P411 sever”.
That makes a lot more sense. There, counts of downloads of the message (not openings, but they may be the same) and forwards _via_ the P411 server would be observable. It would also make sense to implement that functionality, as it represents a marketing statics tool for those offering services.
Given the info, I don’t think that P411 has been compromised, at least not externally. What may have compromised their professional ethics is the old-fashioned thing: Greed. They would not be the first to drop quality to increase quantity. That usually comes back to bite you.
Of course that can include turning a blind eye to law-enforcement efforts or even cooperating with them in some instances. It may also be that they just do not want to spend the money to hire somebody to actually deal with these complaints.
I have to agree with all that has been written about Gina; she is a fraud when it comes to safety. I had similar security concerns about her that have also been shared with me by fellow hobbiest and providors. I’m glad that this information is getting out; shd will sell us out to protect herself. She doesn’t care about her customers one iota.
I’ve never used P411 for exactly this reason. The business model is fatally flawed. Real professional escorts don’t need or want to know a client’s real name, where they live, etc. What they need to know is that a new client is not a cop and not a psycho. Some additional information that that their tastes are more or less normal or that they are into into this or that kink is helpful but not as important.
P411 tried to assure escorts that a man was not a cop and not a psycho in part by making the men give up their real names and address. (I realize there were more or less cumbersome alternatives, but that was the primary means.) But that fails in many ways. There are plenty of real men who are psychos, and plenty of wanna-be men who are cops. Not only that, but cops are professional liars.
The ongoing revelations of massive spying make this sorry episode completely unsurprising. P411 is a honey pot attracting the attention of the worst kind of cops. The wonder is that it lasted as long as it did.
When information is brought to me, there are definitely times when I don’t agree with the person’s interpretation of that information. I’m not one to “smile and nod”, so if I don’t agree, I will let the person know that I don’t agree.
Sometimes that person and I are able to have a respectful discussion about it, and go on about our business, agreeing to disagree, with notes being made.
Other times, the simple fact that I disagree makes a provider decide that I am the boogie-man, or that I simply need to be punished for daring to disagree with her. The first thing those providers do is run around trying to convince everyone else that I’m the bad guy.
This sort of accusation has been thrown out by people who don’t like hearing my opinion, since I first started becoming somewhat known on the internet. So this is nothing new, but it’s always disappointing.
If you are worried about what is being said here, please feel free to contact me directly with any questions.
P411 is only intended to be used as one tool in the verification process. Please do as much additional screening and research as you feel is necessary, to keep yourself safe.
Always,
Gina
Are the facts that Maggie present in this post regarding communication with you incorrect? If so, please state exactly where the factual errors are. From my understanding of information security (masters degree in Computer Science), the story as Maggie presented it seems believable.
Seems pretty obvious to me that you’ve gotten in trouble with law enforcement and are currently working out a plea agreement by cooperating the police. I’m sorry that things have ended up like this. The US justice system is fucked up in a lot of ways. I understand that you can’t admit this in public, but someone should warn the rest of the people involved here.
Gina thew me off her board because I warned guys on eccie that a p411 provider had a pump. I thought we was suppose to help our fellow hobbyist . Instead she kicked. me off. Soon after I had cops calling me
Maggie,
The MBI is really tricky. More games than most could even imagine. Any escort should be extremely cautious of appointments in Orlando. I recall the last few problems with my agency back in June – September of 2001… In one, I had actually confirmed a return airline reservation in which the client (agent) was ‘returning’ to Omaha. They didn’t have enough to arrest the escort, but went through her purse in another room and stole a business card that an earlier client (repeat) had given her. Agents then approached this formerly good repeat and threatened all sorts of crap, including calling his wife. Got him to email me and set an appointment for the following night. Me, not realizing it was the MBI, sent an escort and told her what a great repeat he was. Imagine her reaction when it turned out to be a screaming, angry agent Brant Rose!
Games are what the MBI does best. I can believe all that this woman stated in her email to you. And I’d never, ever recommend a third-party verification service. Nothing is a sure shot, no matter how well verified, but intuition should always rule. I ‘felt’ a problem with Mr. Omaha that turned out to be the MBI, questioned him for 20 minutes, and then made him wait till I got home (busy out) and called the airline before I sent the escort. I knew something was off and should have just tossed him after the first conversation.
What this lady describes is something they’d do, without bothering to cover their tracks, because they really do believe everyone is stupid. And the MBI is certainly back at it in a big way – I have received 2 emails this past week with both people saying that they feared for their lives. This is the worst law enforcement agency in the US, and probably the world, if you are in adult business.
Um,I already know who this poster is,she’s falsely accused many of being le.She’s nucking futs.And she worships you,Maggie,but she likely has some mental instability issues.Her newest sessions are” tantric fusion.”No such thing but ok..She is not well respected in the tantric community.don’t give her crazyparanoia any weight.
@Kellee,
Interesting. I was also called “paranoid” “nucking futs” and “mentally unstable”. Geez – it all really happened, there really was a trial, and the jury really acquitted me on both first degree felonies that I was on trial for and facing 60 years in a Florida prison over. But I’m really just another crazy that makes-up stories, right? According to the MBI anyway. Really crazy make-believe trial I had, that I sold my home to pay for. I so wish. There’s really no issue with LE and they’re all a bunch of swell guys that want to see you do well with your biz – NOT.
Nah, for numerous reasons, I think Maggie’s letter writer speaks truth. Her story adds-up, but yours is nothing more than subterfuge.
If this is not a sockpuppet, I’ll eat it.
Businessweek recently had an informative article about Tor:
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-01-23/tor-anonymity-software-vs-dot-the-national-security-agency
The discussion about P411 is interesting. I agree with Celos that it is nearly impossible to track the forwarding of emails. So I’m skeptical about some of the charges made against P411. At the same time, I don’t fully trust P411 and have never used them or any such service. I wonder if this matter is a case of a private feud spilling over to a public forum.
This is a case of a provider coming to me with some information about “forwards” and “IPs” that I know to be terribly unreliable. When I explained that the information she was relaying to me was not “proof” of anything, and that not all alerts posted are reliable, she accused me of working with LE.
That’s pretty much the entire story.
Many providers (and clients) react badly when they realize that I don’t just take every piece of information as being gospel.
Always,
Gina
[…] http://maggiemcneill.wordpress.com/2014/01/28/something-in-the-milk/ […]
Can someone please tell me the name of the program this person uses on their email? How do you track to see if your emails are being forwarded and that kind of stuff? I want to be able to do this!!!
If it is “Internet Email”, a.k.a. RFC(2)822 email, then you cannot track forwards. There is some limited possibility to track when a message is opened by embedding links to images on a website under your control. This requires you to operate a web-server and then analyze the logs. It also requires that the email-client used is set to insecure settings as secure settings will not automatically download anything or alternatively that the user manually downloads whatever picture is linked. Any reasonable email security software should also prevent this from happening, as will using a traditional text-based mailer.
The security problem is that on many occasions so far, libraries used for displaying images could be compromised by specially crafted pictures. The “image” then takes over your computer and the attacker can do arbitrary things, like sending SPAM and stealing personal information. For this reason, automatic downloading of images contained in emails is really not recommended. Same goes for execution of embedded JavaScript and other active content. Once these are all disabled, tracking email opening becomes impossible or requires very specific attacks against the target email software.
So, no, there is no easy option and what is there is very unreliable. It is different, if these are messages sent over a dedicated messaging system. Then the messaging system has far more control.
I happened to be channel-surfing the other night and saw an advertisement for the old “Untouchables” with Robert Stack and realized the rather deplorable similarities between prohibition in the 1920s and 30s versus prostitution in America now – Canada, where I’m from, having a somewhat saner approach even if the eventual government response to the recent Supreme Court case may make that moot.
However, one can’t help but wonder about the social costs in each case. At least with prohibition there was Al Capone, bootleg and periodically poisonous gin, and the suborning of a not inconsiderable portion of the population and the constabulary versus, on the repeal of it, murder and mayhem on the nation’s highways, and other non-trivial and quite significant social costs. And I suggest that analogy, that parallel, with prostitution as a frequent “john”, a frequent customer, one who will readily say “amen, brother” to Simon and Garfunkel’s “there were times when I was so lonesome I took some comfort there” and been grateful for the services rendered; the “sacred whore” meme or trope may be somewhat of a stretch but, at times, not by much if at all.
But not at all easy to discern the trade-offs in such cases, and to design the laws and systems to maximize benefits and to minimize costs for everyone. Yet I still fully support the legalization of the business and the profession – which I think gets far more bad press than it really deserves.
@Vicky Gallas,firstly,I never called you any of those names and I’m sorry that my comment triggered bad memories for you.I have the highest respect for you and have bought your book and encouraged others to as well.I think it is great.I also have no interest in this subterfuge as you mentioned .I frankly would be delighted if all such “hobbyists” advocates ( a despicable lot) no longer existed whatsoever such as p411 ,date check,ter,eccie,etc..I view them all with total disgust for the power that has been wrongly taken from providers and placed with reprobate misogynists …
But I do know who that provider is,,she has falsely accused friends of mine publicly on forums as being le., ,therefore she has no credibility with me. I do not support p411 or any such client slanted advertisers,they sicken me .I simply care even less for bs troublemaking ,fear mongers.If she has such said evidence she should have posted that here instead of the hard to follow ,ambiguous nothings.that she did write..
@Kellee,
Thank you for the kind words. Truth be told, when I come across discussion on the MBI, I still react. The case left me shattered and for multiple reasons, I was unable to leave the area – still stuck here – so I’ve never been able to move on. Every time I’d plan an exit, some issue caused interference and now I have a personal obligation.
There was a time that I believed the MBI had changed or turned into a regular agency with the usual approaches to adult business. I still believe/know that nothing was like the past years with Lutz at the helm. Zweig (director now) is better than Lutz any day of the week, though the MBI attorney remained the same last I looked (Cocchiarella) and he was/is a major part of the problem – religious zealot all the way, capable of absolutely anything, and he’s not the one that prosecuted me, but he’s behind everything the agency does.
I studied network engineering back in the late 90s, but am not in-touch with newer technologies, so no clue if what this lady stated about email tracking is even possible. However, I do know what the MBI does to anyone – including clients – involved in the escort biz, no matter the new term used (tantric). Same like hobbyists – I remember when this trend started and suddenly everyone was a hobbyist or a provider. It’s all the same to me. The MBI I know has done the unimaginable to clients, leveling threats that are criminal had they come from you or I. I’ve always said that the agency is deserving of a RICO prosecution – they’ve just done so much to so many people; I’m far from alone.
Obviously I do not know the woman that wrote Maggie. She’s definitely right about the power of intuition though. Best to you.
@Vicky,if anybody deserves kind words,it is you.You’ve endured what no one should ever have had to and my heart truly goes out to you.I do,unfortunately know firsthand police abuse and corruption and you are completely credible.I personally thank you for taking a stand,speaking ,your mind and being such a great passionate writer. I would never want to cause you offense. God Bless you.
@Kelly It seems odd to call P411 a hobbyist’s advocate. I thought its aim was to promote safety for both providers and clients (however successful it may be toward that end). In my understanding it is not a review board or discussion forum like the other sites you mention. Can you explain what you mean by this? Just curious about your seemingly strong antipathy toward such a site.
They make money by charging providers to advertise, but they also charge (and screen, at some level) clients. On the face of it, that would seem a bit more of a level field.
@anyfool,You must not be on p411 or heard any of the accurate slew of complaints about who really that site is for.These boards seem to lose sight of the fact that if there were no providers,they really wouldn’t have a business.And yet they still treat us with such vile disregard..If you are on p411,forget to give an “ok” to a “hobbyist”,5 minutes after he left..You will see exactly what I’m talking about.
“Real professional escorts don’t need or want to know a client’s real name, where they live, etc.”
Pretty sure most sane women want to know who they’re going to be spending possibly intimate time with in a closed environment, regardless of what business they’re in. Being an escort doesn’t equate being stupid and willing to do anything for money anymore, dude. So yeah, some of us do need that info.
Hell, I’m not going anywhere with a guy without knowing who he is, that’s just common sense. I don’t know why people think giving out your name and phone number is such a big deal as long as you’re seeing a reputable lady. I mean, you introduce yourselves and give cards out all the time to people in business, who’s to say any of those people isn’t going to go off the deep end and say you were doing something you’re not and then tell your wife. The only reason people don’t want to play normally in this region is that they are actually doing something they would be accused of if someone tried to “out” them. You only care if you’re actually guilty of the behavior. I mean anyone who wanted to really know who you were could just see you without your info and then follow you home and go through your trash, so making yourself see the bottom of the barrel because she doesn’t screen you isn’t any safer, it’s worse.
Guys who run around saying this are just trying to convince women that they can’t be safe and still make a living, that you have to give up your safety and common sense to be in this business, which is so not true.
[…] Something really suspect is going on with P411. Proceed with […]
I am Danny H____ and NONE of this is true, I am a realtor and that is it. I have never had any of these interactions with anyone in the past few weeks or the past few years. I am just a realtor and have lived here for 36 years, please stop these false and slanderous comments. None of this is true!
Funny, but I don’t know too many ordinary folks who go around searching for their names on the internet; that’s usually the hobby of dedicated control freaks like cops and other prohibitionists.
Maggie, with all due respect, I am an ordinary fellow who frequently searches for his name on the Internet — in fact, identity theft experts that routinely recommend vigilantly maintaining familiarity with your “online identity” ito reduce your vulnerability. That has nothing to do with “Danny,” especially since swooping into a conversatino like this is *not* really a way to reduce “false and slanderous comments.” I just affectionately dispute your assertion that the prohibitionists are the principal “name-checkers.” Even if I weren’t concerned with identity theft: I’m also an egotistical bastard eager to read the fine words about me that are surely there. . . .
Wow; I should have proofread and corrected my typos. Please accept my apologies.
I’ve googled my own name several times, and the names of several of my friends. And I recommend that you google yours.
Wow this is a scary thing to hear. For i use that site. May be not now. But can someone point me the right direction about this email tracker. Not computer smart but want to learn all i can about this. Thanks and have a great year.
I stopped using p 411 over a year ago after only using it for one year.
likewise I also removed myself from date check.
I also do not use any of the provider buzz or blacklist sites.
I found more time wasters on both sites than ever before.
I also noted a large portion of the clientele on both websites having poor hygiene being extremely unattractive or being just time wasters.
there was one guy with such bad b.o it was horrific.
then there was another guy with these disgusting teeth who is just the creepiest looking little skinny weird old man I’ve ever seen in my life.
honestly all the clientele I get from ter are handsome they dress well they’re classy.
it is my personal choice to not use any other advertisement site aside from
VIP eros, the erotic review, and of course my all time favorite inexpensive, uncomplicated and gets immediate results
the Boston Backpage. and lastly I am an old fashioned hooker in the sense where my favorite other way to get clientele is simply by approaching people. this is the oldest messaging this is the way it originally all was. this way you can hand select your clientele you get to see what they look like before you decide to approach them.I only approach old Italian men. or Asian men young or old. I have had 3 amazing Asian clients this year also my met on my own accord. they were all handsome clean generous and became regular clientele of mine and I did not use any advertisement site I did not pay anyone to meet them.
then there is a coffee shop near my house we’re all these really really attractive older men hang out. one of them has become my regular and now one of his friends who’s a little younger and very very handsome husband calling me all the time is well and wants to meet me. and then he had given his number to another guy who has an Italian accent must be from Italy.
this is the oldest profession known to man so they say. everyone wants to profit from it and exploit me in any way they possibly can. I am NOT any more safer because someone has one or two or 70 okays on date check. I am NOT giving my money to any of these referencing sites they’re all trying to just explain to people and you are not any more safer because one or two people said they are okay and now this is proving itself to be true with this woman working with the police here.
I had a potential clients from both date check in p4 11 literally harassing me millions of times booking appointments canceling I do not get that with any of the other websites only those two web sites which is why I chose not to pay to be on them because its absolutely ridiculous.
a good method of screening is to keep a huge knife next to the bedside a bottle of hairspray in an open bottle of bleach and keep your fingers crossed.
I know when I open the door for a client I have a bottle of bleach next to me with the cap un screwed.
anyone wants to mess with me they’re getting f*****.
as far as getting arrested for solicitation that’s a slap on the wrist and I’m not even concerned with that cause I can do time standing on my head.
I’ve actually done real time for real things and real felonies it really matter. two felonies in two misdemeanors for violent crimes not related to prostitution anyway.
I have no fear of jail because I have done some time before.
sex for fee is a slap on the rest and if anyone is afraid to go to jail for a month or two then they do they should find another job.
my only concern would be someone coming in with a gun or knife in trying to mess with me in which case they may end up the one that’s sorry……
it would not be the first time I had to defend myself and send someone to the hospital for 26 staples.
I did have one instance in the past where I did have to defend myself and the man was lucky he survived.
in the event someone ever tries to get fresh
I would be more concerned with me not being able to stop once I am in the midst of f****** them up.
I tend to get carried away with whatever it is I’m in the middle of doing.
all those screening sites are for pussies.
there’s no way to truly screen a person inside and out and upside down if someone’s a killer they may just decide to kill you out of the blue maybe they have seen tennis courts before doesn’t mean they’re not going to snap and try to bust a cap in your ass in an appointment.
just cuz someone seen five women and hasn’t killed yet doesn’t mean it won’t kill the sixth person,
the best thing I can do is make sure I’m prepared in the event of any of the possible things that are highly likely to occur and have occurred to me in the past
as well as one of my closest associates that was murdered
from a client during an appointment and it was a very violent catastrophic death.
you can join as many screening sites as you want and you can ask for DNA sample on a stool sample it all comes down to fate and we’re all in for it at some point.
everyones going to die someday and when you’re dead you can’t take any of it with you the best thing to do is enjoy life to the fullest everyday enjoy all the money you’re making and just know if you could die tomorrow and it could all be gone.
so maybe instead of buying a new pair Christian Louboutins
you probably be better off taking a couple days off to exercise and enjoy life and go out and feel the Sun on your face
when you’re dead you can’t take any of it with you
like one of my friends had on his answer machine home has passed away now may he rest in peace.
every time I would call his phone he had on his answer machine the quote from the movie everyday above ground is a good day……
Angel, you sound like LE trying to scare everyone (escorts and clients) away from the biz. I owned services in Orlando for 10 years and never heard anything like what you’re saying here. As for soliciting men in coffee shops? LOL
Just wow.
I know that I’m utterly unimpressed when people on the Internet want to tell me what incredible badasses they are.
I had ongoing issues with P411 for years. First Gina of P411 admits that a ex employee got access to all of the credit card info, and even though they promise that it is a secure site, when you confront them with this, there response, is you should have used a greendotcard. I bet most of the clients used their debit cards.
Back in 2011 3 escorts got busted in Ohio and they made up 3 fake profiles for the cops.
Denver 2012 a dozen P411 arrested and in the media the fbi said they are investigating P411.
The worst is when I complained, that P411 clients are messaging me through their server out and right asking about illegal services. I was told it was OK because the other providers didn’t mind.
As a sex worker right activist I talk to thousands of US escorts every year and I have been told that P411 is threatening providers who blacklist any P411 client. P411 has emailed providers and demanded that their prices be the same on every website. It sounds much like David Elm of The Erotic Review back in the day when they threatened escorts that wouldn’t give freebies or discounts.
The final straw is when P411 throws off providers because they have commented on their concerns for P411 on review forums. So they throw off anyone that has concerns rather than correcting these concerns.
Something is definitely in the milk and that is why I opt out for date-check.com, and have never had any DC client ask me anything inappropriate. P411 is full of the rift raft and the bottom of the barrel as far as clients.
programs like readnotify (paid I believe) allows you to insert something into the email that the recipient is blind to but allows the sender to get IP information, how many times the email was forwarded, opened/read etc. I have yet to have any trouble with Gina but I don’t get much business from p411 either. If you guys want a new site check out discreeteencounters.com it’s less than a year old about 187 members and if nothing else it’s worth looking at
I just got banned from P411 for trying to warn her about an infected male client spreading incurable disease around her members. I was proud of myself for doing such a helpful thing for others, but instead she accused me of lying (why would I do that? I`m not lying) and blackmailing men (huh? Never done that in my life).
What is going on with her? I was trying to protect women (and clients, indirectly…diseases spread) and she banned me and is presumably protecting an infected member.
I had other sites email her to vouch for my 14 year excellent reputation, but no answer.
This is madness. Do you know what`s going on over there? Beyond insane & shocking; she seems either totally insane or purely evil.
Thanks.
Hi there, I came across this ad looking for alerts in Tennessee and my best friend was busted in a sting here yesterday. We were going to start using p411 as a means to verify, but this had made me completely Leary of the site altogether. Would you be able to suggest some better places to get verification? Or even to post? We can no longer use bp as a means here. I am getting ready to post her on eros, eccie, esc.com, and ter (where she has reviews already, so that’s a good thing), but are there any specifics we can look for here in Knoxville? As far as signs or tests that we can do. They took her phone, but we are still able to check the voicemail. I google numbers and try to do as much research as possible if they sound suspicious. I appreciate any help you can give me. Thanks so much. I would like to subscribe to you as well if you put out a newsletter or anything. I was at one time an escort but am now retired and watch over a few girls. I’m all they got. Thank you! 🙂
I just-now happened to come across this blog post, and its subsequent conversation.
In a simply practical vein, I would like to “second” shelley’s request from 1 August 2014. It seems that no one has responded to her query.
*Is* there a site that does what P411 claims to do, and that is (more) trustworthy?
autumnstorm425 mentioned “discreetencounters.com”. (or perhaps discreeteencounters.com). However neither URL is “live,” as-of today (10 Feb 2015).
Does anyone else know anything about this?
There really are no good alternatives since no one wants to risk decades of prison time under latest Fed Trafficking laws as well as many state laws (such as AZ) where it is illegal to assist any prostitute. Note the sentencing of the redbook owner recently. Some sites such as TER (already directly linked to a criminal enterprise) is used by LE. Likewise it seems P411 is helpful to LE to make busts.
In Phoenix in the “Take them to the Church Roundups” (Operation Rose) and be a pretend victim or go to jail, Escorts entrapped report seeing stacks of TER reviews in the police cars they were taken to Bethany Bible Church in.
Reviews especially from TER are used to get plea deals, even though it would be almost impossible to use them as evidence at trials. However, when faced with 40 years in prison (Phoenix Goddess Temple SWAT raid 4+ years ago still in pre-trial stage – “Donald Advisements” of Judge if don’t take plea for felony but with probation, few cases go to trial.
When more than one person is envolved like a driver. phone person or of course an agency or website owner in AZ it is a felony “criminal enterprise”. Then the layor on charges to result in the potential of decades in prison if don’t take a plea deal for felony with probation.
Maricopa Superior Court is loaded with these cases which I am following.
Nationally there is huge money to be made for the “victim industry” that argues all sexworkers are victims even if they don’t realize it since sexwork is abuse by definition. I have the tax filings of these huge non-profits (that pay huge salaries etc) that get the grants with now more coming under the latest Fed Trafficking law just passed (was hung up by the abortion issue for awhile).
Everyone “save them” groups are clamoring for the latest grant funding.
About 90-95% of the resulting arrests are in private consenting adults to boost funding and political points.
A&E recently cancelled the show “8 minutes” where the minister would “rescue” the prostitutes within 8 minutes of meeting them. It was exposed as a total scam and lies with the “actors” pretending to be “victims”.
As many escorts say, they are not interested in being some organizations “resuce project” but often are.
This of course, leads to high risk for escorts who are robbed and abused since escorts are far more scared of LE than in the abusive client.
A well-known and popular provider in Denver (Denver was part of her name for those of you who have been around a while – you can certainly figure out who I am referring to) purposely went to the authorities with details about P411 in exchange for her own pending legal issues to be dropped. She is a snake-a selfish, fraud with no regard for anyone but herself. And Gina is just as shitty because as soon as the shit hit the fan relative to the above-provider’s betrayal – Gina bails out and sells her interest in P411 and TOB but doesn’t say a word about the ordeal to the rest of the community – leaving them all for the wolves. I would strongly recommend closing your p411 accounts and keeping your private information off similar sites. Trust no one.
I left a link to my email– I am interested about this. Sorry it’s a link to my TER showcase, but please contact me if you know more. Thanks, K.D.
Ben oh Ben. Thank you Ben. If you ever make it back to the comments here could you please fine me and get in touch? I was very close to that issue in Denver and am still suffering because that particular crazy woman who shall not be named.
Ben- can you elaborate on this please? Feel free to contact me through this link (just follow thru for email). Thanks.
http://www.theeroticreview.com/reviews/show.asp?id=159144
I’m becoming suspicious as well.
Thx for the information. Appreciate you!
I’m a 29 year old, well educated and fun woman. I am in a long term very happy relationship and recently got engaged. I became an escort a year ago in northern California and I now reside and work in the San Diego area. The whole “human trafficking” hysteria is completely ridiculous and I want to know when LE will realize that going after the providers isn’t the way to stop trafficking of underage and unwilling woman. They need to go after the people who buy and sell these woman and girls. I think that they don’t do this more often because it’s much more difficult to track these people down than it is to find the providers, who post our info on the web daily most of the time….they are down right LAZY. I truly hope one day that there will be a defining line between women who are sex workers happily and willingly and those who are forced into the position. I guess the bottom line is we as providers need to diligently screen EVERY SINGLE new hobbyist that trys to book a session with us. Don’t be lazy, it could cost you your freedom!
Krysta – I don’t want to say much, but I am a well educated professional that years ago engaged very rarely in “hobby.” Now my circumstances have changed and I was thinking of becoming a P411 member and was doing my due diligence on it which brought me to this long list of comments. I am in San Diego. Wondering if there is any safe way for us to meet. I am always safe physically, but frankly after reading all this not sure how someone who is effectively a new by can meet someone safe since I have no references. And anyone I find online has both good reviews and others claiming they are LE. Maybe this chance meeting is first step to a safe meeting?
I am also I high reputable provider I Tampa and had to do a hard identity because my stalker is still a paid member of 411. Even when I produced evidence that he had broken into my home, they still allow this man to have a paid account on p411. EXTREMELY DISPOINTED! This is unbelievably disturbing to say the least.
TO THE TROLL, BADGE-LICKER OR WORSE who keeps trying to post “sex trafficking” bullshit in this column: PLEASE STOP. I will never, ever assist the FBI to harm people in any way, nor will I allow you to post your propaganda in my blog. If you want actual information about sex work from an actual expert, you can contact me directly; of course you won’t do that because you know your narrative is 100% pure bullshit designed to give the government more power and pigs (both local and national) more money.
Go to Hell.
I appreciate this information.
I have been feeling abit reluctant about p412
Myself.
May I ask if the person contacting you inbox you through p411 or just gave you a handle.
I’m asking because I recently had someone YET a 6pm claiming to be a p411 member I asked for his handle and recommended it was best to p411 inbox. He replied back to GET with a handle that looked legit but yet had not reviewed any providers . So naturally I blew him off.
Is ladies need to stick together, I think it’s great you took your time to right this article
Stay safe and sexy
LE uses P411 for stings. Sometimes when they arrest a companion they take over her phone and P411 identity etc. The FBI website has listed P411 as a prostitution site. I have scads of reports from Phoenix companions that when they report a suspicious contact from P411, Gina discredits and cancels their P411. She has to protect her P411 business from any negative news unless it winds up in the media, which some busts have.
Too bad since many years ago Gina and I did work together to do serious checking out of potential bad clients/stings on P411 but in the last few years she only seems to want to hide the LE activity not try and block it. There are also potential legal reasons she needs to not oppose LE, although she is in Canada so less likely to be arrested by U.S. LE or FBI
Like TER it is a goldmine for LE. I have often seen TER reviews in probably cause statements for felony indictments in Phoenix which has had hunderds of felony cases (criminal enterprise if have phone helper, massage parlors, more than one person, even boyfriend or husband helping make both subject to criminal enterprise felony indictments.
Be aware that now Gina/p411 require providers to provide Government ID, plus Gov ID next to the face as well to insure providers are over 18; even the ladies who have been with her from the beginning in 2005! Which where 18 back then, now 12 years later we need to prove we are over 18 and must give out copies of our gov ID, plus pics of the ID next to our face??!!!
BTW, It is Illegal in Canada to ask for copies of gov ID in exchange for an ad activation. That is called FISHING/Identity fraud, info can be found on the RCMP side about this subject, one can only ask to show ID but NEVER to give out copies of your ID!
So, my ad was taken down as there is NO way I will give out my gov ID plus pic with it next to my face!
Read what her former employee has to say about this new Gov ID requirement and how she believes our ID’s will be leaked to LE…
http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/organized-crime/preferred411-p411/preferred411-p411-gina-x-prefe-716224
My gosh this report which is from ripoffreport is from 2011! There are a lot of bad things about P411 including the verified use by LE and listed on the FBI website as a sex trafficking site, however, this ID thing is I believe totally bogus. I don’t find any pictures on her site with any ID number.
Very interesting indeed. I wonder what type of email she’s using that can track IP addresses, tells you when emails are open Etc would love to start using it
I use e-mail tracking so I can tell if and when someone read my e-mails. It works with a tiny image that is one 1 byte – but doesn’t work if just a text reader is used instead of html. Some translate the IP into location – not always accurate however I have found.
A Google search will show lots of tracking options:
Search on:
email tracking when open IP address
Dave, the ID pics are not posted on the site. She requires them of Providers in order to use her site.
I’ve been telling ladies for years! Gina is a fugitive of the United States. She’s been working with the feds for years! Many many years! I have emails from her where she said the same thing “ some people just live for drama and paranoia” and accused me of having an axe to grind a vendetta.
Honestly, thanks for sharing your story Maggie. Your thoughts/suspicions helps the SW community understand why it’s important to do your homework and not believe anything or one’s claims. We’re working on our own system and hope to bring value into making the community safer and easier for everyone. If anyone is interested in checking it out or have any questions please give me an email or even ask here.