What Feministe did is like pissing on your host’s carpet, then storming out indignantly when they point out that you just pissed on the carpet.
– Chris Hall
Australia agrees with what I have stated before: cheating a whore is a form of rape: “Akis Emmanouel Livas…pleaded guilty to sexual intercourse without consent after he left the woman with a white card bearing a printed red rose instead of the agreed $850…”
Ladies, if a client treats you badly, it’s probably best just to add his name to an “ugly mugs” or “bad date” registry and leave it at that: “Angela Dawn Specker…cut a former john on his forearm when she saw [him] in…a liquor store the [next] day…Specker told the cop…that…he…had been very aggressive…pulling her hair and slapping her…[then throwing] the $100 at her and [leaving]…”
New York officially classes all whores as passive objects without agency:
New York…is creating a statewide system of…criminal courts to handle prostitution cases and provide services to help wrest…sex-trafficking victims from the cycle of exploitation and arrest, the state’s chief judge announced…The new Human Trafficking Intervention Courts will handle all cases involving prostitution-related offenses that continue past arraignment…the court will refer defendants to services like drug treatment, shelter, immigration assistance…health care…education and job training, in an effort to keep them from returning to the sex trade…women typically enter prostitution…between…12 and 14, Judge Lippman said…
As we have often seen, basic mathematical literacy is not a requirement to hold office in New York.
A San Francisco strip club is suing Oracle after one of its employees ran up $33,540 in charges on a company credit card – and Oracle refused to pay the bill…Jose Manuel Gomez Sanchez…[charged] $16,490…at the New Century Theater…[then] returned two nights later and rang up another $17,050…
For the first time the men and women selling sex indoors in Ireland have been asked about their lives. The findings harshly contradict the popular media image…The 195 escorts who took part…were from 29 different countries. Most were…in their 20s or 30s and highly educated…97.3 percent were self-employed independent escorts…there was no evidence of the involvement of any under 16s and only one participant was aged under 18. Participants reported low alcohol and drug use [and] high condom use…
A common drug that dermatologists prescribe to treat nail fungus appears to…completely eradicate infectious HIV from cell cultures…the virus doesn’t bounce back when the drug is withheld…[so] it may not require a lifetime of use to keep HIV at bay…the fact that it’s already deemed safe for one type of human use could make the regulatory process faster than usual…
“…A…$3.4 million settlement with the family of Jose Guerena will end a two-year legal battle…Guerena…was [murdered] by SWAT team members…when they raided his house…[a spokesman claimed] the settlement is not an admission of any wrongdoing…” You may remember that the cops tried to claim that Guerena, a retired Marine, must have been a “drug trafficker” because he had a picture of Jesus Malverde.
I get that there’s not technically a federal rape law, but this seems to seriously downplay what this cop did: “Jason Glenn Thomas…a…Police sergeant in Tuscaloosa, Ala., was sentenced…to…ten years in federal prison…for sexually assaulting a…woman in violation of federal civil rights laws…[after detaining her and transporting her] to a remote area…”
In Phoenix, dog porn is a higher law enforcement priority than rape:
A…man accused of burning his initials onto the genitals of at least one woman was arrested again…after…deputies allegedly found pornographic videos featuring a dog at his home. Christopher Jackson…was arrested on suspicion of bestiality…“If you saw the video, you’d be pretty sick,” Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio said…Police also arrested…Josephine Erikson, who they say is seen in the videos…
While Arpaio seems to be motivated by the desire to leer at women in person after watching them in stolen dog videos, over in North Carolina they’re motivated by weird ideas about sexual purity:
A…woman is accused of having sex with dogs while her…husband filmed them [for]…the Internet…Ruben Chance James Fox and his wife, Amber Nicole Fox…face…charges of bestiality, conspiracy…disseminating obscene materials…[and] soliciting a crime against nature. The Humane Society tipped off the…police…
Edinburgh sauna chiefs have compiled a “hypocrisy hit list” of senior public figures who paid for sex at their premises in recent years…[it] includes police officers, council officials, lawyers and even two “celebrities”…[and] is due to be unveiled at a civil court case next month…the list…proves double standards among public officials trying to shut the city’s sex industry down…
Melissa Gira Grant on the increasing desperation of prohibitionists:
I’ve written before about Equality Now (in Jacobin, and in Reason)…[who] deny that anyone involved in the sex trade dissents with their approach. Lately their op-eds have turned explicitly against sex workers’ rights, which makes sense, as the past two years have seen the mainstream of the global health and human rights community joining sex workers in calling for an end to…criminalization…Equality Now appear to be losing credibility as human rights advocates…As more and more…advocates…demand…that sex workers be understood as the experts…the anti-sex work campaigners begin to look quite out of step with the…people they claim to protect…
Lauren Hersh, who wrote the op-ed to which Grant refers, was a prosecutor who resigned in disgrace after she was caught railroading two black men on rape charges. Grant also commented on a Scott Long article which examines Equality Now’s lies and schemes at great length, ending with this bombshell:
…The Milano School of International Affairs, Management, and Urban Policy is offering a practicum for students…in a project for Equality Now. “This project would analyze the legalization of prostitution and formation of sex workers’ rights groups…Equality Now seeks to better understand the movement…in order to refute arguments for legalization and lobby for adoption of the Nordic Model instead”…
In other words, Equality Now is paying a prestigious institution to spy on sex workers so as to help it create fake sex worker rights organizations which will lobby for the Swedish model, thus confusing politicians and others into thinking there is legitimate debate among sex workers about decriminalization being best. The strategy itself is nothing new; it’s why Swedish model missionaries often deceptively and incorrectly label it “decriminalization”. But that they are willing to go to this extent demonstrates the depth of their desperation, and the fact that the school took down the page as soon as they realized activists had found it (but not before Melissa got this screenshot) shows that they are fully aware of how incredibly unethical this is.
A Tale That Grew in the Telling (TW3 #50)
Sunitha Krishnan’s lies get more outrageous all the time:
Yes, that’s 100 clients a day she’s claiming there.
For over two decades, Chester Brown has been one of Canada’s leading cartoonists, known…internationally for such works as Yummy Fur, Ed the Happy Clown, I Never Liked You, and Paying for It…For this year’s McCready Lecture, Chester Brown will present an illustrated talk…[to complement the] presentation in the Canadian galleries of a selection of the original drawings created for Louis Riel and will launch the new anniversary edition of the book…
…last week…Feministe made a very embarrassing and controversial post about sex work disappear from their site, along with several hundred comments…they have not posted any explanation, apology, or retraction for the post, apparently hoping that they can just make it vanish down the memory hole…”Dear Feminists” by Sarah Elizabeth Pahman…pretended to be about…impoverished sex workers, [but] it was all about Pahman, and how seeing them for the first time made her feel…[the incident] shows how deeply institutionalized their problems with sex work are…
The Joy of Juxtaposition (TW3 #312)
Georgia appears to be competing with Washington for the state with the most ridiculous and extreme manifestation of “sex trafficking” hysteria:
…a new Georgia law requires certain businesses to post…notices letting sex trafficking victims know who to call for help…The list includes: adult entertainment establishments, bars, airports, train stations, bus stations, truck stops, emergency rooms, urgent care centers, farm labor contractors, privately operated job recruitment centers, rest stops, hotels, and massage parlors without licensed massage therapists…
What, not ethnic restaurants and nail parlors?
Did you see that ridiculous video which claims that most whores in Amsterdam were “trafficked”? Here’s Dr. Brooke Magnanti on what’s wrong with the entire mindset that produced it:
…[in] Stop the Traffik’s recent “viral”…bystanders who think they’re enjoying a show are suddenly broadsided with a ham-fisted…message…It neatly employs a trick that has been used by what Laura Agustin calls the “Rescue Industry” for some time now: conflate all trafficking with sex trafficking, and all sex work with trafficking…it’s then perfectly acceptable…to mislabel consensual sex work as abuse…and at the same time to ignore the more widespread and less fashionable phenomenon of forced labour happening in domestic and drug sectors…the people who influence public taste and public policy definitely don’t want anyone looking too closely at where their cleaners and their drugs come from, but everyone hates sex work, so attacking that is A-OK. Raids that rescue exactly zero trafficked individuals and put plenty of willing others behind bars are fine…
The UK is moving toward defining people in their early twenties as “children”:
…Child psychologists are being given a new directive…that the age range they work with is increasing from 0-18 to 0-25…the change follows developments in our understanding of emotional maturity, hormonal development and particularly brain activity…There are three stages of adolescence – early adolescence from 12-14 years, middle adolescence from 15-17 years and late adolescence from 18 years and over. Neuroscience has shown that a young person’s cognitive development continues into this later stage and that their emotional maturity, self-image and judgement will be affected…
Keep in mind that since “adolescence” is largely an artificial concept, dividing it into periods like this is equally artificial. But at least someone with sense is quoted in the article:
Frank Furedi, professor of sociology at the University of Kent, says we have infantilised young people…”There is a loss of the aspiration for independence…and…psychology…reinforces that kind of passivity and powerlessness and immaturity and normalises that…we hold our children back from a very early age. When they’re 11, 12, 13 we don’t let them out on their own. When they’re 14, 15, we hover all over them and insulate them from real-life experience. We treat university students the way we used to treat school pupils”…
Another excellent article by evolutionary psychologist Peter Gray explains that one of the biggest culprits is the eradication of unsupervised play:
…around 1960…adults began…reducing children’s freedom to play on their own…Adult-directed sports…began to replace “pickup” games; adult-directed [activities]…began to replace hobbies; and parents’ fears led them…to forbid children from going out to play…away from home, unsupervised…Over the same decades…[there has been] a continuous…increase in anxiety and depression in young people…the suicide rate…has more than doubled, and…[there has been] a decline in empathy and a rise in narcissism…[which is] exactly what we would expect to see in children who have little opportunity to play socially. Children can’t learn these social skills…in school, [which] is an authoritarian…setting…[where] children…are not free to quit when others fail to respect their needs and wishes…Yet policymakers…are continuing to push us in the opposite direction — toward more schooling…more adult direction…and less opportunity for free play…
The “deals went bad”. Seven times.
…Van Dralan Dixson, 38, confessed to police that he was responsible for a Sept. 1 rape in which he [attacked] a woman who was leaving work at a fast food restaurant…he told police…that the [only] two incidents that [he was sorry for]…the one…“with the kids and the ‘chicken lady’”…but the rest were prostitute deals gone bad and he had nothing to apologize for…
“Australia agrees with what I have stated before: cheating a whore is a form of rape:”
This would seem to undermine your claims that sex work is just another service like any other. If I refuse to pay a taxi or a restaurant for services rendered the charge is theft. Rape is a considerably more serious charge with much harsher penalties. If sex work is just another service, why should it receive special protections to make sure its practitioners are paid.
“Rape” is the word we use for taking sex from a woman without her consent. It’s not my fault the culture has added a politicized meaning to that; what’s wrong is the hype, not the definition. And if you can’t figure out the answer to your last question there, I can’t help you.
If I read this right, this is “conditional” consent (which does not exist: either you go along willingly or you do not) we are talking about with the condition falsely believed by her to be met due to trickery by him. That is a bit different from “without consent”. Fraud, theft of services, yes, but rape, no. Except in very pathological definitions of rape, consent cannot be withdrawn after the fact.
You are doing your former profession a disservice here. If suddenly fraud perpetrated against a hooker is worse than other fraud, maybe hookers think they are special? Not good.
Would you also argue that armed robbery was not worse than pickpocketing?
I’m not going to go over all this again; the argument has been had before. The problem lies in the perception that rape is somehow unique among crimes, not in the label itself. So take it up with those who argue that rape is unique, not with one who has argued it isn’t.
You misunderstand. (A selective blindness? I know that fraud hits self-employed people very hard and in your case there is/was not even a legal way to go at it. It still is fraud.) I have no perception that rape is different. I have a very strong perception that violent crime is different from non-violent crime. The fundamental difference is this:
1. Fraud is breach of contract. Two sides agree to exchange goods or services. One side negates, sometimes after the other has provided its part.
2. In rape, armed robbery, violent coercion, assault, etc. there is no contract. One side just takes something by force or performs some act on the other without consent.
a) So, if the hooker wants to be payed before and then refuses to render the service, that is fraud. There was a contract, she violated it. She can usually fix this by returning the money.
b) If the hooker wants to paid afterwards (which I gather is considered unprofessional), renders the service and then the client refuses to pay, that is fraud. There was a contract, the client violated it. There is really no way for the client to fix this, but in countries where prostitution is illegal he may get away with it.
c) If, on the other hand, the client pulls out a gun and forces himself on the hooker, there is no contract, hence this is rape.
d) And lastly, if all goes well, but afterwards the client pulls a gun and takes the money back, that is armed robbery. The contract was fulfilled, but what happens afterwards is out of scope of the contract.
I am sorry, but your stance really makes no sense at all. And it hurts your position.
In a world where sex workers could successfully sue for breach of contract, I might agree with you. However, this is not that world, and the client who rapes by fraud knows that; in fact, he counts on it. It’s therefore more like a cop robbing a business by implied threat than it is like breach of contract, and should be classed accordingly.
BTB, I sincerely thank you for recognizing that if I do indeed have a bias here, it’s as a self-employed person rather than as a woman.
Well, in Australia they can. It’s legal here. A sex worker can go after a customer who does a runner the same as a restaurant can. IN fact – isn’t this exactly what happened in this story?
Oh BTW, this: “the client who rapes by fraud knows that” is a question-begging argument. The non-question-begging version of this would be “the client who has sex without paying for it by fraud knows that”.
“It’s therefore more like a cop robbing a business by implied threat” – but the client is not making any sort of implied threat. The situations are nothing alike. I remind you again: its legal here.
The assumption was of course that it _is_ a legal contract. And you may know that in some parts of the world it is. Where I live, the sex worker would call the police and in addition to having to pay for her services, the fraudster would get a fine or if repeat offender may even go to jail.
I might also have overreacted because US citizens so customary assume the rules in their country apply everywhere.
Ok, I now see where you are coming from. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I agree that in the US, defrauding a sex worker is a lot more serious than ordinary fraud with a legal contract and the next step up from “fraud” if the service is “sex” is indeed “rape”.
From the perpetrator’s viewpoint, this is a deliberate decision to go contrary to the other person’s consent; there is no grey area here.
Consent is consent. If it was obtained by trickery, that is called fraud. Fraud is a crime.
So, consent is retrospective?
I mean – lets take another example. If a man tells a woman he loves her, and she agrees to sex, but he does not really love her at all and just said that to get laid – is it *RAPE*? Is it? Would you count that as a rape? It’s fraud, right? Fraud to get sex?
Or is it only rape if there’s money involved?
Which is it? Is the issue the money, or the sex?
“I mean – lets take another example. If a man tells a woman he loves her, and she agrees to sex, but he does not really love her at all and just said that to get laid – is it *RAPE*? ”
Funny you should mention that Paul because there have been a few court cases just like that in ……………………. India.
India has a law about “outraging a woman’s modesty” i.e. “rape”. Just like they call sexual harrassement “eve teasing” – Indians come up with some quaint terminology for sexual offenses.
Anyway, yes, men have been tried in court for “rape” when re-negging on marriage proposals. The logic goes like this, “A good, cultured Indian woman would never have sex outside of marriage but she might, if particularly inclined toward being misled, have sex with a man she loved IF he promised to marry her in the future. Therefore for an Indian man to do so in order to just get sex, knowing full well the innocence and virtue of our great Indian women, it is an ‘outrage of the good, cultured and chaste Indian woman’s modesty.’ We are not debauched Westerners after all!”
That was the logic used in these cases.
In other words, the woman consented to sex under false pretenses that she would have never consented to otherwise. Therefore it is a type of “rape”.
A few such cases have made headlines in India’s newspapers. I don’t know the outcome of them.
“Rape” is the word we use for taking sex from a woman without her consent.”
I agree with this definition, but I have trouble with the idea that your conclusion that not paying a sex worker, satisfies that definition.
In the case of a man that comes into a meeting with a sex worker, completes the act, then refuses to pay, the sex worker has consented to the actual physical act. Granted, she did it with the inducement of money.
If you were to prosecute (or simply call) such a case rape, what about the myriad of other situations where guys use false inducements to get women to sleep with them? What about a situation where a girl will not have sex outside of love, so a guy falsely tells her he loves her? What about a girl that will not have sex with a married man (or a happily married man) so a guy tells her he is single, or about to file for divorce? What about a non sex work situation where a guy says things like “I’ll take care of you.”?
Rape is sex without consent. If you have consensual sex, with an unrealised expectation on the back end, that is not rape.
Given the argument I have laid out, I shouldn’t have to say this, but I will. I feel sex workers can absolutely be raped. Nothing about the nature of their job should render them unable to be so. But as long as the physical act is undertaken under her own free will, I do not see how subsequent actions can be used to deny the initial consent. Therefore, how could it be sex without consent?
If sex is seen as a service or act of physical labour then the situation might be clearer.
Replace the sex act with something like “paint the wall”.
Now to consider your examples in sequence.
a) A woman paints a man’s wall because she thinks they are friends, when he actually can’t stand her.
b) A woman paints a man’s wall because he says his tenant is moving out and he promises he will rent his the room to her, but the tenant doesn’t leave.
c) A woman paints a man’s wall because he says that he will help her with her own renovations when the time comes, but doesn’t.
d) A woman paints a man’s wall in return for the promise of payment of $500 but he refuses to pay when the work is completed.
(Note that the assumption in all of the above is that no documented and legally binding agreement was made over and above the motives stated.)
In which case has the woman actually been defrauded and had her labour/services “stolen” from her? In all cases the woman “consented” to paint the wall. Yet only in one case would it be generally be accepted that the woman’s “consent” had been invalidated.
When a prostitute has sex, it is an act of physical and (sometimes) mental labour. The prostitute does not do it for the pleasure, to satisfy her own emotional need, or as part of a social ritual. It is work. Just like digging a ditch or running a multinational company.
And just to be complete, labour obtained through use of force or threat is assault, kidnap and slavery.
Society has merely chosen to label the “theft” or forced provision of sex by a particular term – “Rape”.
Rough Trade:
Rape? The bastard should be strung up by the goolies. Anyone who makes it harder for normal customers and vendors of sexual services to get together easily and safely should be the subject of um, lots of nasty stuff.
Be Careful Who You Rape: Same in this case.
Imagination Pinned Down:
I would think that someone who intensely wants a memory of an event to be different from what actually happened can affect subsequent recollection as much as third party interventions.
Hmm. False rape accusations.
That ROUGH TRADE guy’s mom lives in Pearce which is about five minutes away from me.
Oddly enough, my most difficult customer at my shop was a big fat ugly Greek guy. Canberra seems to have a lot of them. I saw a dozen when I ate dinner at the Hellenic Club the other night.
A TALE THAT GREW IN THE TELLING
Is there *anything* that a human can voluntarily do a hundred times a day? i.e. besides inhale, exhale, blink take steps, and swallow?
I can barely get through thirty push-ups and sit-ups without losing concentration.
If you want to see what a 100-client-a-day brothel really looks like in real life (rather than in prohibitionist masturbatory fantasies), read my column “Honolulu Harlots“. The quota at the tolerated Honolulu brothels was exactly that: they needed a special system to deal with it, clients were limited to three minutes each and the lines were so long they literally stretched around the block. And the only reason they got that many was, of course, the busy wartime naval base at Pearl Harbor. It is literally impossible to have a clandestine, illegal brothel doing anything remotely close to that kind of trade.
But remember, Krishnan also claims that “pimps” have beaten her up multiple times, yet ALL of the supposed acid attacks and assassination attempts have miraculously failed; apparently her defenses conveniently only work against dangers that leave permanent marks.
Holy mackerel. That’s crazy.
By 100 clients a day – are you talking about one girl / 100 clients?
If not … the FKK’s in Germany “process” through a lot more than that on some days – but then again – they could have up to 60-80 girls there depending on the work-load.
Yes, one girl per 100 clients.
For those who have never been to India: 100 clients per day is not only possible, but in some areas where prostitutes are considerably few per the local population of a village or town, I have no doubt it is the norm.
I’ve never heard of Sunitha Krishnan til reading her name today right here at this blog. I’m currently listening to her speak on youtube. Thanks for turning me on to her.
There is no reason to assume she’s lying. Especially if you are not familiar with India.
Then you are an imbecile, like the others who have NEVER DONE SEX WORK who believe this idiocy. I suggest you contact a real authority on sex work in India, like DMSC or VAMP, who will explain to you exactly what an imbecile you are.
It would be physically and logistically impossible to provide service to that many men on even a single day unless it was a massively choreographed operation like a pron bang-bang.
Furthermore, NO WOMAN would do it. She’d beg on the street first. I hate to be gross, but her pussy would fall off.
I’m sorry but you’re just not thinking it through. Guys can be gross and raunchy when they’re horny, but most men are not going to want to have sex with a woman mere seconds after she’s seen another client. Furthermore, unless she has a madam or manager to handle the finances, she has to collect and count the money and put it away safely. If she has a few clients, she probably moves the whole wad of cash somewhere else so a client doesn’t rip her off.
Also, if you watch the movie “Whore’s Glory” (and yes I know this is just an anecdote), they interview Indian prostitutes and I distinctly remember some of them saying that business was sometimes slow. And oh god I’m a sex worker myself but that part of the movie was really really sad.
Is this math right? If a gal “worked” 20 hours straight without eating or taking time off to use the bathroom or clean up – she’d have to service 5 guys per hour?
How many days in row can a woman do that on 4 hours of sleep and basically no food?
Living in India really doesn’t give you a particular insight on this that the rest of us don’t have unless you were involved in one of these “hundred man trains”. I mean – there a lot of Americans who have no understanding what the paysex trade is like in America – because they’ve never been involved in it. That’s why they soak up trafficking rhetoric like a sponge.
You are giving the clients too much time. It would have to be like Maggie said: 3 minutes and get out. With 2 minutes between clients, that’s 12 per hour, or 96 in 8 hours. A girl will need some breaks, but 100 in 10-12 hours seems possible – IF the clients are so sex-deprived, and so stimulated by what they hear and see while waiting in line, that they can shoot their load in 3 minutes – and there’s a security force capable of forcibly removing them at the time limit, done or not.
In other words, it’s conceivable with sailors just off a long cruise and the SP’s keeping the line moving. But I’d find a rack of Playboys and a private booth more satisfying.
Just as a simple matter of fact, 100 clients per day per worker is most certainly not the norm in India. A recent, large-scale study there found that 79.4% of workers who had been forced into the trade saw fewer than 20 clients per week, this was not significantly different from the number of clients seen by workers who had not been coerced.
As Maggie has said, I think you’re not quite appreciating the sheer logistical difficulty of managing 100 clients in a single day.
And there is also the little problem of getting these customers from somewhere. I mean, If there were really 100 customers per day per worker (if, hypothetically, that would work), that is either a very small number of workers or a very large customer base. Both would increase the number of workers very fast.
So, no, that number simply cannot work out.
It’s this refusal to consider logistics which lets people believe in rainbow parties and the like.
Let’s assume a 10-hour day. 100 clients a day without a break is 6 minutes each. Considering that a bloke needs a few seconds to pull his pants on, and that a girl needs to water the daisies now and again, we’ll make it five minutes.
What service are these girls providing? Don’t tell me its full service! They’d have to stand up at intervals to let the semen run out (like that old joke about the brothel with the dead girl). So we are talking head and hand jobs. Actually – forget head jobs. Ain’t no-one sucking anything all day for 10 hours straight. So hand jobs all round. Five minutes and no more than five minutes. For everyone. No exceptions.
Indian men must be on a goddamn hair trigger. Either that, or it’s an assembly-line arrangement with teams of fluffers outside, managing the queue.
The point Maggie is making is the absolute thickheaded innumeracy of some people.
The only thing, the absolute only thing I can think of where 100 clients a day might be feasible is lap dances with strictly limited time. You pay your dollar and the dancer sits on your lap for two minutes. I saw this in Brisbane, all the guys on the couches, patently waiting for their turn as each dancer came off stage and worked her way down the row of punters. More than just the one dollar in Brisbane, obviously.
So ok – maybe it is possible if that’s what you are talking about. But it’s not exactly the impression the sex trafficking hysterics are giving, is it? It’s not exactly a woman chained to the wall, forced to service a never ending line of evil men who violate her body.
It’s the dishonesty of these people is the issue.
“But remember, Krishnan also claims that “pimps” have beaten her up multiple times, yet ALL of the supposed acid attacks and assassination attempts have miraculously failed”
I’m listening to her TED talk now and on it she does not claim acid attacks or assassination attempts (so far at least) but she says she has lost hearing in one ear due to being beaten up, and one of our partners in her mission has been killed.
I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that she has been beaten up several times. Why? Well, who here’s ever lived in India?
You know that there’s a link in the section title for a reason, right? And that I specifically refer to a specific TW3 because there’s MORE INFORMATION THERE?
You’ve about used up my patience for today. Here’s a hint: claiming prohibitionists know more about sex work than sex workers do is like claiming the Ladies Gospel Temperance Union know more about wine than a vineyard. And it’s a good way to get me to start deleting this stupid shit instead of letting it through.
Maggie, what’s with the outbreak of pompous, arrogant twits in your comments lately? Have you stopped wearing Opium and begun applying Eau de Self-Importance?
😉 😉
I have no idea; perhaps someone linked me on pompoustwits.com? 😉
You know, I just now realized why that “have you ever lived in India?” bullshit pissed me off so quickly and thoroughly; it’s exactly the same as the creationist thing of asking anyone who talks about paleontology or evolutionary theory, “Were you there?” It’s an incredibly anti-intellectual attitude.
Indeed, it is. It negates the worth of research and thought completely.
Indians bash their wives. They do. Sorry. My saying that is not racism, it’s cultural chauvinism. I have a personal … memory relating to this which I will not repeat.
In what is still a caste-based society, I’d totally believe that prostitutes have it rough. That’s what “Well, who here’s ever lived in India?” means. It’s not a nice place, if you are part of the underclass.
Thirty push-ups is way above average for a female! Kudos! 🙂
They are lame girly knee push-ups: I haven’t graduated to the adult male sort yet. LOL.
Still a Child:
This is pretty horrible! People will to a significant degree act the age they are expected to be. This attitude is preventing people from growing up!
I have met quite immature attitudes when giving lectures to freshmen more than 10 years ago, but I could simply tell them that they were not children anymore and should grow up fast if they expected to be successful at learning in the self-reliant fashion that university studies require. That shut them up pretty quickly and some did get it and started to learn. Now they probably will think they are doing it right?
What is next? Parental consent for sex and marriage before 25? No drinking before 25? No economic self-determination before 25?
If they continue this, eventually childhood transitions directly into old age….
Maybe that’s the idea. It’s unfashionable to discriminate against people because of their race, sex, religion, or sexual orientation. But kids? Oh man, this generation can’t be trusted with anything! They’re the worst ever! Why, back in my day…
And old people, well, don’t be surprised if the age of official seniority starts edging downward, and if we start hearing that ALL seniors are too senile to make their own decisions…
“Bad Girls” – It’s amazing to me the number of escorts I’ve seen who spend their time learning “Yoga” but know nothing of self-defense. Take a Krav Maga class and practice for cryin’ out loud – and skip the Yoga! “Security” is to women what living in a clean apartment single is to men. Women simply aren’t good at it – in fact, they suck badly at it. Call me “chauvinist”!
“Rape” – I agree with the term, Maggie. Though I think we need to reverse the trend of telling little girls that it’s the worst thing that can happen to them – I DO think it is different – and worse than “theft”. You’re not stealing an inanimate object. This is another reason I think that prostitution should be decriminalized and not “legalized” – it’s different from selling any other product. It shouldn’t be taxed – it shouldn’t be regulated – and the government should have nothing to do with it. Women are the sexual “regulators” in human society and they do a fine job with that.
“Georgia Trafficking” – in Georgia … you do not “push” a button on a piece of equipment … you “mash” it. “Mash that button ri’chair!” Yeah – absolutely nothing to do with anything in this article but I try to pass on Southern cultural quirks whenever possible to our heathen friends from up north! 😛
“Adults as Children” – Well, it’s not just the UK because ObamaCare mandated that “children” up to the age of 26 be covered by their parents health-care insurance. CHIP carries “kids” up to the age of 19. So it’s happening here too. But the fact is … “children” easily accept restrictions on their freedoms in return for security – so the longer the “statists” can keep a person a “child” – the longer they have control over him or her.
“Supervised Play” – yeah I remember the days I did it – almost killed myself a few times – split my chin open once and had to be taken to the hospital – it was great fun! It’s important, I think. All my kids played “unsupervised” but I had my tricks to keep an eye on them. My youngest girl was called “Radio Girl” by the neighbors because I had her wear a GPRS radio on her pants so she could get ahold of me. She had a call sign and everything – as did i! 😛
“It’s amazing to me the number of escorts I’ve seen who spend their time learning “Yoga” but know nothing of self-defense. Take a Krav Maga class and practice for cryin’ out loud – and skip the Yoga! ”
They need to skip America’s version of “yoga” and actually do dhyan (meditation).
Does dhyan yogo employ “throat punches” to an opponent as a means of “meditation”?
Cuz if not – that ain’t gonna help these gals either.
But then neither will “most” of the martial arts when they’re faced with a bigger opponent. Krav Maga isn’t a martial art though – it’s street fighting. Watch this chick – she’s sparring with a guy – but the blows she’s using have to be seriously “pulled” because if she made contact – she’d hurt this guy.
Note – she’s not just kicking this guy in the nuts ONCE – but she’s pummeling his balls like a jackhammer.
True story. You can believe it or not.
Some decades ago I was doing technical contract work for a software outfit.
One day I was taking a smoke break on the building’s veranda. A lady in a sharp business suit came out for same. She said she’d been interviewing for a high level security position. In chitchat I asked what I knew already, what was the big security problem? “Plants and spies giving company secret development information to you-know-who” was her answer.
I allowed as I understood and believed it. Competition was fierce. So I asked what she thought they could do to root out the spies.
Without missing a beat, she came back, “Sleep deprivation is legal under the Geneva Convention!”
It’s the one area I will never listen to a woman on and I it’s the only subject I will get “gruff” with a lady on if she tries to advise me.
The 2009 bombing of Camp Chapman is a STELLAR example of what happens when women are placed in charge of such things. Seriously? A birthday cake baked for a fucking terrorist to make him feel “comfortable”?? Well, the cake never got served. Not that this has never happened with a man – but I’m hard pressed to think of a single female who serves as a role model for “security procedures”.
Oops! Just thought of one …
Margaret Thatcher.
But then again, most women disown her don’t they? 😉
She was mistaken about that. Sleep deprivation is recognised as torture, which is banned.
It shouldn’t be taxed – it shouldn’t be regulated – and the government should have nothing to do with it. Women are the sexual “regulators” in human society and they do a fine job with that.
As long as governments have any trace left of “avails” laws and exploitation rhetoric it is manifestly hypocritical (and indeed criminal, by their own standards) to tax sex workers; but sex worker rights organizations are in favour of taxation.
The rate needs to be set very carefully as governments often make inflated tax claims. The Sex Workers’ Syndicate in Switzerland negotiated a reasonable tax rate of $5.39 per day, with the minimum fee for a client being set at $100.
What’s wrong with just taxing her income like a butcher’s, a baker’s, or a candlestick maker’s?
Nothing at all, once the state has demonstrated that it will not use taxation as a weapon against sex workers. That is why interim agreements between the sector and the government can be very useful.
OK, I can see that. And an agreement of “you can tax us a little bit more” might accelerate the day when the government stops trying to pretend they can make prostitution go away (see also marijuana).
“Yes, that’s 100 clients a day she’s claiming there.”
You’ve never been to India, have you?
Why, are the laws of physics different there? Or perhaps just the number of hours in a day?
“Why, are the laws of physics different there? Or perhaps just the number of hours in a day?”
Nope. The sheer number of men in the population.
That is such an incredibly stupid response, I need give it no reply other than to point out that it’s like saying Western society is in danger of being overwhelmed by dog attacks because we have so many dogs.
But there are lots of women, too! India’s gender ratio is 1.08 (1.07 in the 15-64 range), which is a bit on the high side but not that ridiculous. Even if we assume that that excess requires more sex work, the increase should be a few %, not 400%.
You also might want to check out Kevin Wilson’s comment, which uses an actual study.
“Nope. The sheer number of men in the population.”
Ah, now I get it. India has about 600,000,000 men, which means that the girls must see 100/day. So, in Ireland, which has about 3,000,000 men, the girls only have to see 0.5 men/day. And as 0.5 men/day really doesn’t make whoring financially worthwhile, clearly there isn’t any problem with prostitution here. And therefore, Lord Morrow in the north and the Daíl committee in the south, both of whom want the Swedish model, are perverts trying to solve a non-existent problem, and distracting us from whatever the real problems are.
Not seeing the relevance. I’ve been to Chile many times; this does not make me an expert on South American sex workers.
No, no, HAL, you don’t understand; Culturephile says she’s from India, which obviously means she knows more than I do on Indian sex work despite never having done (or even studied) sex work herself. Obviously, by that same logic I know more about American medicine than Indian physicians do.
“…[in] Stop the Traffik’s recent “viral”…bystanders who think they’re enjoying a show are suddenly broadsided with a ham-fisted…message”
Hang on – are they using strippers to get people to watch their message? Stripping is sex work. Even if the strippers aren’t going the full monty, it’s still sex work. And even if someone is paying you to do it in order to get people to watch a political message, *its still sex work*.
Stop the Traffik is paying sex workers to do sex work. It doesn’t matter that they are doing it to get people to view a political message. The ends do not justify the means. By Stop the Traffik’s own (absurd) standards, they themselves are traffickers.
Not paying a prostitute a form of rape.
Therefore, take the going rate, lets say somewhere between high class and street – err on the high side and we have $400.00.
Now, take a crime that involves stealing something worth that much, and use the same penalty for rape…..a hefty fine or a month or so in gaol…
????
One more time, since so many of y’all are absolutely determined not to get this: you do recognize that the current extremist Western view of rape, that everything from deception to continuing in the heat of the moment to putting a gun to a woman’s head are all one and the same crime, is really unusual in an historical sense, right? You know what it’s called if you shake your fist at someone? “Assault”. But it isn’t the same as beating someone up. And you know what touching someone without his permission is called, right? “Battery”. Yet that isn’t the same as “aggravated battery”. There can be many levels, forms and mitigating circumstances of similar crime all classed under a single word like “theft”, “assault”, or even “rape”. That doesn’t make them all equal, and anyone who thinks it does has been listening to far too much feminist propaganda for his own good.
I think you’re being a bit harsh, saying that the UK is advancing childhood to age 25. The side bars in the article do explain a bit. Not so long ago, the brain was believed to have its neurons and wiring set in concrete from birth, or shortly after. But it’s now clear that there are major changes in configuration around 5 and 18—not just in how we think, but in the actual wiring, with new axons and dendrites; significant structural changes. And the pre-frontal cortex certainly isn’t mature until around 25. And after this, changes are possible; the London taxi driver study showed that those who had “The Knowledge” had larger posterior hippocampi than those who’d failed. More recently, ballerinas who don’t get dizzy have been shown to have smaller cerebellums. So the brain is a plastic organ.
In the UK, car insurance only becomes affordable when you are 25. And in the US, you have to be 35 to be President. Both of these suggest that people recognise that maturity comes rather late.
Further, there has traditionally been a hiatus in the UK between what paediatricians and adult physicians offer. For instance, cystic fibrosis used to be a disease of children, adult physicians never saw it as the kids died early. But now, they survive into adulthood, yet it is the paediatricians who have the expertise in their management. Similarly, you can argue that the developmental problems that the young have are best managed and treated by those with the appropriate expertise, and that it is inappropriate at an arbitrary age to send them off to an ‘adult’ provider, for that provider may well have little understanding or interest in such problems. If you are more cynical, you might call this ’empire building’.
i wouldn’t disagree that adolescence is an artificial construct, but then so are childhood and maturity; convenient labels. The designations of ‘early’, ‘middle’ and ‘late’ probably refer to the achievement of ‘milestones’, and are no more than a shorthand for this—the author of the article is hardly an expert, and like most reporters/journalists is merely repeating what she’s been told. And it’s quite possible that the Victorian invention of ‘childhood’ which was a ‘state of innocence’ was prolonged by compulsory schooling. Historically, it does seem that people did mature earlier—perhaps they had their 18-year old brain rewiring or ‘passage’ at an earlier age. Nor would I disagree with the idea that childhood is being prolonged by molly-coddling the kids, and always requiring adult supervision. Of course, in the UK, this is because of ‘Health and Safety’ regulations, and teachers’ fear of litigation. When I was a kid, it was natural to walk to school, or take the bus; today, parents block the pavements outside schools with 4x4s (SUVs); their kids can only be brought and picked up. And, on a school trip, we went down a deep level coal mine; I can’t imagine this happening today.
Childhood and maturity are NOT artificial by any means; surely you as a physician know that. There’s a clear line between them; it’s called “puberty”. Below that line, a sexually-immature child; above it, an adult capable of reproduction. But of course that’s not good enough for Man; after all, it’s much harder to prosecute people if the signs are bright and clear.
‘Artificial’ is one of these difficult words; it can mean either ‘made by the artifice of man’ or ‘fake’.
Rough Trade
I still don’t know if I agree with this or not. Something doesn’t sound quite right about this, and yet I don’t feel that I can say “no” with any confidence.
A Procrustean Bed
I think I see the “average age of entry into prostitution” nudging down here. Yes, “between…12 and 14” pretty much means “13,” which is the claim now, but this may be how it steps down to “12.” Maybe when it becomes nine people will realize that they’re being snookered.
The Proper Study
None of this will surprise regular readers here, but it’s good to hav the information out there for the newspapers and such, since they apparent;y don’t do investigation anymore.
An Ounce of Prevention
This is very interesting and deserves further study, but there is a huge difference between rubbing something on your feet and using it inside the entire body. I’ll be interested in seeing where this goes.
Scapegoats (TW3 #10)
I think somebody better call the…
Well, my Thanksgiving holiday went fine, but I don’t think I want to do that again. Too expensive, and puts a hold of several days on my regular life. I love seeing people I don’t see that often, but I just can’t afford to make these trips just before Christmas shopping time. I have already bought a gift for one nephew, and for somebody I know online, I bought her gift in June.
Tale That Grew in the Telling (TW3 #50)
As young as three and as old as [gasp] forty! Because it’s a rare man who would want to have sex with somebody that old!! I wonder, is the average age therefore 21½? Nah, that wouldn’t shock enough people. Between twelve and fourteen it is, then, until they make it twelve.
Watershed
I agree of course, but there’s something I’m noticing: the idea that it’s wrong for white people to do anything for anybody else, to care about anybody who isn’t white. Sally Struthers asking for money to feed starving people in Africa is cast as a bad thing, as if Struthers, being white, is only allowed to care about white people. It’s almost as if, well, white people don’t care about anybody else, so any who do, well, that’s bad.
Theatrics
Very well-coordinated dancing there. Would get my attention, and hey, are THOSE dancers coerced? No? Then, then it is possible to dance in a window wearing skimpy clothes w/o being a slave? Well whatddayaknow.
Still a Child
Yes.
Yes.
Well of course.
Oh, fuck. Pulling the traditional “young people these days” crap is stupid, even if what the deplorable state of the world’s youth is being blamed on is stuff I (or you, or Peter Gray) happen to dislike. Even if I (or you, or Peter Gray) are right in disliking this thing. For instance, the epidemic of narcissism is crap. Every generation claims it (for their progeny, not for themselves*), and it’s always crap.
I have been speaking out about this brain stuff for ages. “Neuroscience has shown that a young person’s cognitive development continues into this later stage and that their emotional maturity, self-image and judgement will be affected…” for the rest of their lives. A person’s personality continues to develop from some time before birth to the grave, unless there really is an afterlife, in which case it continues after that. And notice that “late adolescence” is from 18 and up: no upper limit. That’s not “late adolescence,” that’s LIFE.
Be Careful Who You Rape
If every prostitute deal is going bad, and it’s different prostitutes, maybe the problem is you, Drixon.
Imagination Pinned Down (TW3 #334)
How reliable would your memory be?
* Actually, somebody else’s progeny. Their own kids are always the exception because they let their kids go out and play or they don’t let their kids spend all day on the Internet or because they don’t coddle their kids or because because because, but all those OTHER KIDS are quickly going to hell in a poorly-made hand basket.